Bullying Discussion

[Thangorn]

bah the only reason I posted is because Twist did.. but I'm not self-editing.. no way..

[Keryn]

I would like some actual hands on url's to threads where people are outright being bullied. From reading the past posts in this thread, it seems like its happening quite a lot.

Let me see... Mick do you have anything to say?

[Magile]

I am very tired of standing by while the well-intentioned are bullied by the aggressive. I would like to kick off a discussion of just what constitutes bullying in your mind, and where to draw the line in ALFA.

Let me see... Mick do you have anything to say?

To answer seriously here, now that the chain has been kinked, I think there is an issue with where people draw the line in ALFA in regards to bullying (obviously an issue, or else we wouldn't be discussing it). What I mean to say is, not everyone will see one thing as bullying, but they may certainly see another thing as bullying (that others won't).

This thread will become a great example as to what people will take as bullying and what people will not. To those in the gag, not one has ever stated they feel ill-will towards Mick; however, the lighthearted response that imitated the post may or may not come across as bullying, depending on how serious the situation is taken (I don't think anyone will deny that). It's one of those moments where many folks may laugh, but then right after go, "oh my..." when they no longer realize if it's suitable to laugh or not. This case often comes up with stand-up comedians (by no means am I saying any of us are stand-ups, but you will normally see that reaction on, say, a Dennis Leary show).

Then again, to put my view into perspective, I actually see this thread as bullying. I've stated why in the thread itself, it's a group of people hounding one individual, whether or not they see it as hounding (again, all my view of bullying). Everyone there has "clarified" and defended their reasonings for why they feel the need to make an entire thread outing one individual (of which the individual did not create themselves to question), which to some being on the receiving end, can (and has) been a put off on playing the game/posting on the forums.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is, everyone has a different sense of humour and an idea on how they should post, including how they/others should not post. Moderation, to me, becomes difficult at this point because it's hard to judge (with such a difference in community members) as to how a post will be taken. They can moderate all the posts that have any potential to insult and, quite possibly, cause a problem due to such actions. They can also moderate in a very lax manner, which could mean some posts slip by and, well, it ends up the same way as described in the point before.

For a long-ish story put short, I think it's difficult for everyone to see eye to eye when it comes to "bullying," considering I don't even see that word as anything at all. I suppose it's the gamer in me that learns to accept most attitudes on forums (outside of blatant racism) because it's stuff I've seen for years and years from all over (whether ALFA or any other community/video game). I don't expect everyone to agree with me, nor do I expect myself to agree with everyone -- it's how the world works. Is it a flaw? I think so, yes. This is why I'm not in a position to control/authority, as I know I cannot please the everyone and it'd probably eat away at me because of it.

[Mick]

I would like some actual hands on url's to threads where people are outright being bullied. From reading the past posts in this thread, it seems like its happening quite a lot.

Let me see... Mick do you have anything to say?

Only that even I expected it to take longer for my point to be confirmed.

[HATEFACE]

I would like some actual hands on url's to threads where people are outright being bullied. From reading the past posts in this thread, it seems like its happening quite a lot.

Let me see... Mick do you have anything to say?

Only that even I expected it to take longer for my point to be confirmed.

I'm sorry you did not approve of our posts. It was in the spirit of good fun.

[Keryn]

I would like some actual hands on url's to threads where people are outright being bullied. From reading the past posts in this thread, it seems like its happening quite a lot.

Let me see... Mick do you have anything to say?

Only that even I expected it to take longer for my point to be confirmed.

Thank you!

Its because any atempt of a decent debate/discussion around a subject some people consider important, /and it is obvious a lot of ALFANs feel something is wrong by reading this thread) ends up being dragged into this type of childish situations. Like Wynna said it is indeed sad. Its sad for all of those who work hard to make this a good project and find that their efforts are not respected, even in a topic like this who was started in a serious way.

The issue here is not one case, its a comunity's problem. Those who didnt realized this were maybe to centered in what was going on with Nalo, well Nalo's problem was being discussed in other thread, what was brought here was how some people act towards many others. And its quite surprising how this same thread sudenly was the proof of what was said earlier.

And Magile actually has a point. Where does your "freedom" ends? I answer you where the freedom of the guy next you starts. I simply want to say your free to do whatever, if you dont ofend others or cause them any type of harm.

Which is not the case in several situations, someone is targeted, many others take a good laugh, and that one guy target feels miserable, this is not what a comunity should seek.

Oh and BTW Magile your example does really fit in what bullying is and I have read the whole thread without finding anyone being ofensive in there. There is debate/discussion around an issue, that started over complaints about said type of "writting" IG that was being disruptive to some people, no one made a joke of MoE, everyone gave their opinion, in order to eventually find a way to solve the issue, or simply leave it alone. Seems like there is a guideline about it anyway... Unfortunately MoE is the only one RPing like this in TSM, so it is his RP who brought this up, would there be others RPing in same fashion and Im sure this would not look like what your saying.

[Wynna]

I believe at this point this bears repeating:

Noa Davenport, Ruth Distler-Schwartz and Gail Pursell-Elliot identify “mobbing” as a particular type of bullying that is not as apparent as most, defining it as "…an emotional assault. It begins when when an individual becomes the target of disrespectful and harmful behavior. Through innuendo, rumors, and public discrediting, a hostile environment is created in which one individual gathers others to willingly, or unwillingly, participate in continuous malevolent actions to force a person out of the workplace."

**Self-edited due to moderators action in removing posts to which I referred. Thank you, Moderators.

I repost my initial question here, again, in the hopes that the discussion may continue, with new input or reasoned commentary on what is already here.

I would like to kick off a discussion of just what constitutes bullying in your mind, and where to draw the line in ALFA.

Thank you.

Thank you.

[ALFAModerator1]

Mocking fellow members is not an acceptable conduct. The offending posts were moved to the moderators forum for discussion. Keep the discussion civil please.

[HATEFACE]

Serious post is serious. . in the off topic area. May I suggest that next time you post in the ALFA discussion forum seeing as how this concerns ALFA. Because this post is here I must hold it up to the same vigilant standards and highest scrutiny by compairing it to the latest batman flick thread and death of major league D&D mapper thread.

Thank you for your time.

[fluffmonster]

It is not about their role-playing. Ultimately, its not even about communication. Its about who should do the changing - one new person coming into the community - or the entire community? Several people have related how easy it was for them to make the adjustment to the way this person types ... but why should everyone in the community have to make that adjustment, rather than having the new person simply conform the accepted way of doing things in ALFA? I've not seen a single argument about why this person needs to continue their communication style rather than adopt ALFAs. Think of it as a question of mathematics - one person makes a tiny change to their style, versus every other member of the community who comes into contact with that person having to go through a moment of disorientation, then communication about what is going on, then adjustment to that person's style - rather than that one person adjusting to the style of the community. And as has been alluded to so eloquently by MK, the inability or unwillingness of a person to make such a small change in their style to fit into the community may say volumes about how they see their relationship with that community.

[fluffmonster]

btw, i have no problem pursuing and erradicating harrassment and harrassers. That's been against the rules always. Its a better term than bullying...any sort of hurt feelings at all can be stuck in the bullying box. And, like family, any community with a self of identity is going to have hurt feelings on occasion.

Sanction harrassment, not bullying.

[Mulu]

I would like to kick off a discussion of just what constitutes bullying in your mind, and where to draw the line in ALFA.

The problem with trying to define bullying is that it's ultimately subjective, and depends as much on the response as on the original act. I had my forum title unwillingly changed to its current Mental Welfare Queen (I suspect by Rusty) but I just rolled with it and laughed along, even declining to have it changed to something else when Mik offered back when she was PA. Had I been a member who prefers to play the victim role I probably would have fallen to the floor bleeding and cried out for help, making multiple threads about how unfair and mean-spirited ALFA is. So, is the act of changing someone's forum title to something potentially insulting an act of bullying? Is telling someone to STFU bullying? It depends on the result.

To use the oft referred to legal reference of sexual harassment (and being a lawyer rather than a doctor I don't think any members here are mutated cells worthy of death, I will instead use the far more appropriate legal analogies that balance free speech with autonomy), what many people don't realize is that no action is sexually harassing objectively, not even groping a breast. A word or act can only be harassing if it is unwanted by the recipient, and would offend a reasonable woman. To give an example, back when Ken Starr released his infamous report, I was working in a medical malpractice law firm as an associate. We were all hanging around in the break room at lunch, when my grandmotherly legal secretary finally couldn't take it anymore and asked us all in a desperate tone of voice, "Is it okay if we talk about blow jobs?" We all agreed it was and then proceeded to have an embarrassingly raunchy discussion of all the sordid details of the Monica Lewinsky affair. Sexual harassment? Not a chance. Trust me I know.

So, it all comes down to expectations of conduct and the actual response. Starting a thread designed to single a member out for criticism (whether for using quotes when talking IC or running for election) would probably be seen as bullying by many. That said, I've been singled out in such a manner a few times now, and I've never gone running to an AR or whatever. Jayde was recently singled out an election or so ago, by the now reformed Mikayla no less, but handled it well and didn't cry foul (and I know she had her reasons for doing it, but still). The new member who uses quotes for IC chat may very well feel singled out and ostracized, and if so then that thread is an act of bullying. So, how do you define that? Legally it would end up being something like this:

Unwanted conduct that hurts the feelings of another and intends to insult, embarrass, cause anguish to or humiliate that person.

Note that includes several prongs: It has to be unwanted or unaccepted by the recipient; it has to actually hurt their feelings (only the recipient would know for sure), it has to be done with the requisite intent. Hard stuff to prove, you can trust me on that one too, and we're hardly equipped to deal with burdens of proof on subjective issues of feelings here. Maybe the best way to deal with it is to have recourse to have posts removed if the recipient feels insulted and an admin agrees it was in poor taste, with a warning issued initially and a sufficient number of such posts deemed to be bullying in nature leading to a strike.

[ThinkTank]

mockery is acceptable between friends.

So its unacceptable here because...

[ALFAModerator1]

mockery is acceptable between friends.

So its unacceptable here because...

Let me clarify then. Mockery wasn't probably the best way to describe it. What happened was a bunch of guys piling on and trolling a poster. It's very different from friendly banter.

[Keryn]

mockery is acceptable between friends.

So its unacceptable here because...

Because some people are not your friends... And others might also not consider you as their friend, or even they are your friends, but they dont like the "mockery".

So if this "mockery" would be kept between friends who have no problems with it, im sure no one would say a word... But when there is someone complaining its because maybe he didn't liked it. And since the goal here is to have fun not to go home angered by some mockery in the forums I believe that is wrong.