a little example of why nerdcomunities needs feminism

[FoamBats4All]

Once you go ginge you can't go back.

Oh come on, that doesn't even rhyme!

How about "Once you go ginge, you can't help but cringe!"

Blasphemous! Gingers are hot!

Except Veilan.

"Once you go ginge, can't keep from that min--"

[Analogkid]

Again, someone who would be tolerant of insanity or evil has a problem, then again I suppose I would have to accept that I just am not a nice person, but I guess its taken a lot of not nice people to make it so that we have the right to argue these silly things.

I personally am a libertarian but I also don't advocate cultural suicide, or nihilism, which is what selective tolerance has become sadly.

Comparing gender equality to tolerance for evil is just plain bullsh*t. And what is this business about you not being nice, but it taking a lot of not nice people to make sure we have the right to argue these things? Are you claiming credit for the freedoms we have in the U.S.? Did you take part in the American revolution? Did you fight for the north in the Civil War? Did you protest with the suffragettes? Did you march in the civil rights movement? Have you even served in the military?

Take a breath, and calm down. I would say you're seeing arguments that are not being made. Who compared gender equality to tolerance for evil? My claim on tolerance focused on the idea of being "tolerant" in any and all cases.

I seriously doubt you did any of those things.



I on the other hand, have served in the U.S. military and then spent nearly a decade working in the LGBT civil rights movement. And I don't try to take credit for our freedoms - I just point out that I've actually worked for them.

WTF have you done?

So...since I didn't serve in the military, I have no right to comment on.....absolute tolerance for...everything? hmm ok.

And "selective tolerance" equals cultural suicide? You say that after saying we need to be more selective about what we tolerate. Your argument is inconsistent. Moreover, let be clear on something - f*ck tolerance.

So you agree with me then. Absolute tolerance of everything is wrong.

I will say it again.

F*ck tolerance

That is not the goal of women, or the LGBT movement, or the civil rights movement.

The goal is equality. Not tolerance. Tolerance implies that we are somehow "bad" but you are willing to put up with us. F*ck that. The goal is equality.

Ok...but again this would be a different topic from what I was speaking about. Not every time when someone talks about being offended does it automatically mean we're talking about gender issues. There's a lot of other issues out there in this world after all. Does being mad at seeing a crazy insane street preacher accosting people walking by now count as a gender equality issue? How about a guy flashing his junk to kids outside of a middle school? Is that tied to gender or LGBT issues?

[Xanthea]

Once you go ginge you can't go back.

Oh come on, that doesn't even rhyme!

How about "Once you go ginge, you can't help but cringe!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVN_0qvuhhw

[Mikayla]

I never argued for "absolute tolerance" - thats just a straw man you are setting up to deflect from the actual discussion regarding gender equality and nerdcommunities (which is what this thread was originally about).

Should we be intolerant of things? Sure, I am intolerant of theft, rape, murder, and lots of other things that harm people.

That has NOTHING to do with the struggle for gender equality, racial equality, etc. The fact that you bring it into this argument at all is an attempt to derail to the discussion and is an insult to the equality struggle.

M.

[Zelknolf]

"Once you go ginge, can't keep from that min--"

I find this appropriate as it excludes Veilan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVN_0qvuhhw

http://s311.photobucket.com/user/ilask/ ... V.mp4.html

[Stormseeker]

Now this is the off topic that i use to know.*grins*

[Veilan]

Fact: Society is so discriminating against men, that people are allowed to consider a lower life expectancy for men acceptable and even "equal".

Shockingly, this blatant discrimination is even institutionalised by the WHO.

Our model of society kills off men in a heap of stress and agony from physical labour, role, work, life and love expectations and conflicting demands of society, employers, partners, parents, children and peers... while we try to make them believe they are the perpetrators rather than the victims of sexism, because their reactions to a woman's attire are totally sexist.

This aggression will not stand.

[Zelknolf]

Fact: Society is so discriminating against men, that people are allowed to consider a lower life expectancy for men acceptable and even "equal".

Don't drink so much, don't smoke, if you do try to kill yourself don't use a gun (srsly. Guns are super effective.), don't get into street fights, don't take stupid risks to impress girls, don't drive your car so fast (especially not to impress girls), don't take any medicine that promises to enhance any part of your anatomy or to make you more manly, seek medical attention when seriously ill. (srsly. How do you treat people who refuse to present for care?), actually consider hiring women for those better-paying (but higher-risk) jobs, and let women into your military (and don't rape them when they show up).

Folk have worked hard to squeeze that 30% improvement we've gotten over the last couple decades, but it's damn hard when you guys keep giving yourselves heart attacks and cirrhosis.

[Galadorn]

Really?! Are you cirrhosis???!

[Veilan]

Fact: Society is so discriminating against men, that people are allowed to consider a lower life expectancy for men acceptable and even "equal".

Don't drink so much, don't smoke, if you do try to kill yourself don't use a gun (srsly. Guns are super effective.), don't get into street fights, don't take stupid risks to impress girls, don't drive your car so fast (especially not to impress girls), don't take any medicine that promises to enhance any part of your anatomy or to make you more manly, seek medical attention when seriously ill. (srsly. How do you treat people who refuse to present for care?), actually consider hiring women for those better-paying (but higher-risk) jobs, and let women into your military (and don't rape them when they show up).

Folk have worked hard to squeeze that 30% improvement we've gotten over the last couple decades, but it's damn hard when you guys keep giving yourselves heart attacks and cirrhosis.

Of course - men all do this out of free will and choice, rather than

from physical labour, role, work, life and love expectations and conflicting demands of society, employers, partners, parents, children and peers

.

Hooray for perpetuating that men are the self-determined, independent, heroically pressure-immune agents of their own destiny. Guess women are just passive victims of mean society though? Or does the same hold true for them, and they simply choose not to display good spatial reasoning or, say, earning prowess?

Trololol.

[Zelknolf]

You may be surprised to learn that "role, work, life, and love expectations" are a human experience, not a male one, and that "conflicting demands of society, employers, partners, parents, children and peers" hits all but the most antisocial of us (at which point you become dubbed "estranged" and get a special classification of "wtf?" in the eyes of others).

On physical labor, if you mean the kind of stuff that's riskier and pays more, that was totally on my list (but if you want women to do those jobs, you have to hire them. Bonus cookies: that will reduce the pay gap).

That said, if you actually don't think you can control your own actions in terms of those addictions/ risk-taking, even if it's because of that list of crappy social pressures, then you're sick, and

seek medical attention when seriously ill. (srsly. How do you treat people who refuse to present for care?)

If you know anyone who doesn't think they're allowed to seek help because of crappy social pressures, you should intervene.

And if you can control your actions, then stop doing that stuff. It's bad for you.

[Veilan]

So we've established that men and women both are subjected to society, while at the same time both maintain some agency and responsibility for their own welfare, to give Kant his due.

That means the debate's solved: The problem really isn't sex (in action or treatment), but society / culture at large, and people individually, so harping and trying to attribute it to one sex or the other in generalisations is a highly partisan exercise with an obvious agenda.

[Ronan]

Male attractiveness improves with signals of social status, and one strategy to improve social status is to take successful risks. Another, similar one is not to ask for help. These risky strategies can be entirely rational (and not necessarily "sick") for an individual, but a risk is still a risk and sometimes it bites you.

Female attractiveness is highly dependent on physical signals, such as youth, health and fertility. Its a lot safer to be pretty than to be brave.

Veilan I'm not sure if I catch your meaning, but there's a ton of data (and common sense) showing the differences to be genetic and not cultural. Obviously culture can influence how men take risks, which is very important. We'd much rather them go to work for a startup than say, get into street fights. We'd prefer they take risks which potentially produce real, tangible profits rather than only gains via signalling (which is all you get out of fighting).

[Stormseeker]

Men and women will never be equal. And it's foolish to try to make them so. Sure some times of jobs out in the world they can both do, but even doing the same types of jobs they tackle it in different ways.
Even in a family full of women who SAY that they can do anything a man can, lol there are jobs that they refuse to do. And these jobs are the most nastiest,dangerous, and toughest. They either nag one of us males to do it or HIRE another male to do it.
I can give examples from home,jobs, and even my time in the army.

That said, i adore women, treat them all like ladies(even while trying to be sly looking at them), and go out of my way to protect and keep them safe. Teach my girls that they can do anything a man can do...BUT must do it in a different way.

[Zelknolf]

So we've established that men and women both are subjected to society, while at the same time both maintain some agency and responsibility for their own welfare, to give Kant his due.

For their own mortality from preventable causes? Absolutely.

But claiming that all gender-themed issues are resolved because people should be expected to try to not die, and to seek help if they're having trouble doing things that prevent their own deaths, is a pretty extreme generalization. It sounds mostly like you ceding your own claim, for which life expectancy was provided as sole evidence.