McCain taps Palin for VP!

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Mulu
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Post by Mulu »

Or we could have encouraged change by the people of Iraq themselves, or we could have invaded with 900,000 troops, or we could have actually managed the occupation with a modicum of competence, rather than fire the entire Iraqi government and military and put a 24 year old with no finance background in charge of their stock market (his sole credential was having gone to the correct Christian school). Well, the list goes on.

If you are truly interested in learning about your candidate and the Iraq War, you need to watch the movie he gave a very long interview in called "Why We Fight." It's the most straight talk I've ever heard coming out of McCain's mouth. If he talked like that all the time, heck I might consider voting for him.

Beats staying uninformed. ;)
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Post by White Warlock »

Indeed, a good vid.

Dan, some more of this "collateral damage" you so arbitrarily dismiss: Another 'conservative estimate' indicates, by 2006, the Coalition forces killed over 200,000 civilians, (with 600,000 total civilian deaths), and the war had displaced over 1.2 million Iraqis.

How many people live in your little sleepy town?


Btw, to get an idea of how devastating this is to Iraq, visualize 6 million Americans civilians (men, women, elderly and children) dead, 24 million civilians disabled, and 12 million American civilians displaced as refugees in Mexico and Canada. These are comparable numbers... this is no small ripple of disturbance. This is not merely 'collateral damage,' or as you put it, "things happen to make better things come about."

And remember, these are both conservative estimates, and made two years ago... after only three years of this war. The dead and disabled may very well be close to double that by now.
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Post by Lusipher »

Its a sad thing to have happened, WW. I dont belittle what happened to both our folks and the civilians who were affected. War is just that way, though. How many folks you think were affected during WW2? I mean, a lot of bad things happened to make things better. Its just the nature of war. Its a hard pill to swallow, but if good things come out of all this then indeed its worth it.
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Post by Mayhem »

That's a pretty damned big "if"...
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Post by NickD »

But... It's just a war because Bush made it so... To say that collateral damage happens in a war as an excuse for all the civilian deaths and disabilities when the war shouldn't have taken place in the first place isn't a very good argument.

I realise this is probably a hard thing for you to do, but I want you to visualise your daughter had been collateral damage in an invasion. If the outcome 10 years down the track meant a better life for the surviving population, would you think it was worthwhile? Because that's the situation a great percentage of the population of Iraq is now in.
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Mulu
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Post by Mulu »

Lusipher wrote:Its a sad thing to have happened, WW. I dont belittle what happened to both our folks and the civilians who were affected. War is just that way, though. How many folks you think were affected during WW2?
For example by the Yalta Agreement signed by Stalin, Churchill, and Roosevelt, where the Allied Democracies turned over to Soviet authorities more than 2,250,000 Soviet citizens, prisoners of war, and Russian exiles (who were not Soviet citizens) found in the Allied zones of occupation in Europe. Most of these people were terrified of the consequences of repatriation and refused to cooperate in their repatriation; often whole families preferred suicide. Of those the Allied Democracies repatriated an estimated 795,000 were executed, or died in slave-labor camps or in transit to them. Necessary deaths I suppose. No big deal.

Or for more modern times the Rwandan civil war, or the war in Darfur, both of which resulted in genocides. Well, by Lusipher's measure you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette after all.

The point you're missing here is that war *is* bad, and therefore you shouldn't start them unless you absolutely have to. Knowing that wide-scale tragedy will ensue, perhaps other options should be explored. But the Bushies were too busy lying about the mushroom cloud that would occur if we didn't invade Iraq to really care about outcomes, and now we're spending billions to remain in their mess.

And yes, if some other country had invaded us to liberate us from the Tyranny of Bush, and your family was collaterally massacred as a result, I bet you wouldn't be waving their flag.
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Mulu
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Post by Mulu »

Image


Image


Image
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Post by Veilan »

I knew they somehow looked familiar!

I also have to confess... every time I see this thread I'm tempted to abuse my powers and correct the typo in its subject line.
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Post by Lusipher »

whats the typo?

Loved the similarities, Mulu :D

btw this is off topic from this topic, but wanted to share:

This was at TMZ:


The folks at MSNBC wants us to make them the place to get our info on one of the most important decisions ever. Turns out we're getting that info from a bunch of whiney, back-stabbing, petty anchors.

An epic feud has erupted on the air between Joe Scarborough, Keith Olbermann, Chris Matthews and David Shuster. They're all accusing each other of being bias, partisan and all around D-bags. They can no longer hide their contempt for each other on the air. The deal is that Scarborough is odd man out because he's a former Republican congressman. The others are known Democrats, except for Shuster, who claims he's never had an affiliation with anything except Just For Men haircare.

The New York Post is quoting sources who say Tom Brokaw is disgusted at MSNBC's play to make it itself the official We Hate George W. Bush cable net.

MSNBC's move comes years after FOX figured out that it could score big ratings by aligning itself with die-hard conservatives. MSNBC is now making the same play with whiners -- a large faction in this country that believes the economy is in bad shape.


See, even the mainstream is finally figuring out that MSNBC is becoming completely off the way Left wing nut jobs.
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Post by Veilan »

Lusipher wrote:whats the typo?
Hehe, tabs should be taps.

Now, I don't know about your media. I'm reading the TIME magazine weekly here, and I have to say while it makes a good effort about objectivity, it does have a left-leaning bias. Our own media is just hideously raving for Obama - you have a hard time even finding out who McCain is, if you don't know where to dig.

Though, I did read an interesting piece in Spiegel online the other day, not that I agree with all its conclusion, but it was interesting nonetheless:

The Hidden Issue in the US Presidential Campaign
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Post by Lusipher »

Hehe, tabs should be taps.
Fixed! :lol:
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Mulu
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Post by Mulu »

There's nothing hidden about that issue, it's just unresolvable. Come November we'll see how far we've progressed, or haven't.
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Post by Grand Fromage »

If McCain rips out his eye, starts drinking constantly and runs around screaming about robots, I'll vote for him. Then someone can throw coffee at him during the inauguration.
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Post by Mulu »

And Hurricane RNC, I mean Gustav, is now projected to become a Cat 5 before it makes landfall on Monday. Hmm, hurricanes and McCain....

Image

And just for fun:

Image

Image
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Post by Swift »

This thread is a great example of 2 things:

1) American Political discussions in Off Topic brighten my day due to the amount of bullshit and extremism people happily show

2) Dans stance on Off Topic is utter hypocrisy that he spouts only when it suits him. This thread is everything he supposedly hates Off Topic for, and he is one of the major contributors.

I salute you sir.
Last edited by Swift on Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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