Don't ask, Don't Tell, Don't keep this policy...

JaydeMoon · Post by **JaydeMoon** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:42 am

Mikayla wrote:Jayde:
Barry Winchell was killed in a time when a VAST majority of homosexuals in the military are not open about their sexual preference. How many times might that repeat itself if suddenly every homosexual felt the urge to declare themselves openly and flaunt their sexuality in response to a removal of repression and a major political/societal victory?

Maybe none times. Maybe 10 times. 1 time is too many.
So we should just accept our place as second class citizens to "protect" ourselves from the wrath of homophobic straight people? Thanks but no thanks. Unless and until someone (us) pushes the social wheel towards progress, those homophobic straight people are never going to change their behavior, and the Barry Winchell's of the world will go on getting killed (by the way, Barry was not gay - he was dating a woman, she just happened to be transgender). The only hope for changing the way other people to think is to stand up for ourselves and not accept the shame that others want to heap on us.

Of COURSE you shouldn't just 'accept your place' as second class citizens. You should push the social wheel towards progress because that's what it takes.

I'm only saying that right at this VERY INSTANT may not be the time to remove a policy that ultimately doesn't do anything except rankle (because of the principle) when the risk for tragedy is unacceptable. Military is all about minimizing risk and avoiding unacceptable risks and losses.

Of course, that's also my pessimistic "people are shitty" side coming out. Could very well be that they could remove the policy and it would totally be taken in stride by everyone *shrugs* That would be AWESOME. *not-so-shrugs*

But if not, or in the meantime, or whatever, keep working, keep educating, keep expanding minds, and one day it will be as you (and I) desire. Open and accepting. You do your part in the way you know how and I do my part in the way I know how.

Also, I'm aware of the details of the Winchell story, in the context of this debate, it's the practically the same thing.

Ultimately, my position is one of "Change is inevitable, keep working towards it and it will come, maybe not right now, but it will come."

Mikayla · Post by **Mikayla** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:01 pm

The policy does do more than "rankle" Jayde - it gets good soldiers kicked out of the military, or prevents them from being honest about who they are. They are forced to live in the closet to get by, and thats not right, especially when you consider these brave (and homosexual) men and women are fighting and dying for our country - but we will not let them love their partners openly? That is not just.

Jayde:

Ultimately, my position is one of "Change is inevitable, keep working towards it and it will come, maybe not right now, but it will come."

Change will come, but not necessarily progressive change - the social wheel can turn back as easy as it turns forwards. So, we push. The implication of your statement above is precisely the notion I am trying to disabuse you of - which is that social progress will happen eventually. Someday. Tomorrow. But not now.

Thats a recipe for zero progress. The don't-ask, don't-tell policy has been in place for 15 years. You want us to wait longer? Why? Until we remove it and work through the difficult transition period, the argument that some people might get hurt will always apply. It applies today, it will apply tomorrow. So, there is little reason to wait until tomorrow.

As for Helios, your desperate, personal attacks aren't worth responding to in detail. Ciao.

JaydeMoon · Post by **JaydeMoon** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:40 pm

One could argue that if you can't abide by the policies that are in place, then you are not a good soldier. I won't, but I'm putting that out there.

As for it not being just... that'a absolutely true.

Again, it's a question of risk management. YOU may be willing to take the risk that could come with removing the policy, but military commanders aren't, so they aren't pushing for it ATM. Politicians have their own thing.

Anyway, as I said before, I could be totally wrong and the policy could be removed and no one would bat an eye. That would be nice. But all I can speak to is the atmosphere that exists and the places where I think there's a valid argument to keep the policy in place. Whether those arguments outweigh the valid arguments to remove it, I can't be sure.

Mikayla wrote:...which is that social progress will happen eventually. Someday. Tomorrow. But not now.

Thats a recipe for zero progress.

Oops, that's not actually my stance (oops is for my own misrepresentation via poor word choice). Social progress IS happening now, you are right. And to put off advancing social progress is indeed a recipe for ZERO progress.

I'm speaking more to the fruits of labor, the end result, post change.

Realistically I see that many people are opening up, fighting for what is right and worthwhile, etc. Progress is being made, right now.

But, until we have reached what some may call a 'critical mass', change will not ACTUALLY occur. But everyday, keep working, because everyday, another person evolves into someone with more understanding, compassion, and love while those who remain ignorant and spiteful grow smaller (overall).

Good luck to us all.

Lusipher · Post by **Lusipher** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:34 pm

This may come as a shock to many, but I dont care if your gay or not. I dont care if your gay and you serve in the military as long as you do your job and serve this country well. Your lifestyle and personal choices are something you will learn to live with. If you do not believe in a God then you will live your life thinking you dont have to pay for anything you do in life. If you do believe in a God you understand the concequences of your lifestyle. You make that choice, not I.

I have changed a lot of my feelings toward homosexuality since coming here to ALFA. I still dont feel its right and I still believe its a sin, but just because I believe that doesnt mean Im going to judge a person anymore. Its not right and i wont do it. (my brother in law is gay and i know a lot of gay and bi sexual people).

You have the right to push for your views and wanting to change things in America. It doesnt mean that I agree or hope that they come to pass. I just dont think it will happen for a long time yet. Maybe years from now when more of the liberal "children" grow up and take office and such then we will see those views being tolerated, but for now the children of the 30s-50s are still the majority and they wont vote for your views. A lot of their children probably more than most will also hold those views, but wont be the majority years to come.

This debate just gets old. We go from arguing about sexuality to religion to flames and we all just look stupid doing it. Debating things here wont change anything. Acting in real life and changing our moral compasses/tolerance will change those things. It takes time as we have seen with the intergration of blacks in American society. Some will say that still hasnt been done as well as they wanted, but quit your whining and make it happen or shut up

Ok...Im going back to trying to get my internet cafe network working like i want it. See you in a few hours when i read all the wonderful "go fuck yourself, Danubus" replies.

JaydeMoon · Post by **JaydeMoon** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:41 am

I am SHOCKED, Sir! Absolutely SHOCKED!

mxlm · Post by **mxlm** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 1:18 am

Go f*sk yourself, Danubus

Grand Fromage · Post by **Grand Fromage** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:27 am

mxlm wrote:Go f*sk yourself, Danubus

fluffmonster · Post by **fluffmonster** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:29 am

if your brother-in-law is gay...doesn't that mean your brother is gay too? But, how is your brother-in-law then your brother-in-law since its usually quite difficult for gays to get married? I'm not tryin to start shit, just that the dots aren't connecting for me there right away.

danielmn · Post by **danielmn** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:42 am

Fluff....I would assume brother in law means his wifes brother?

HATEFACE · Post by **HATEFACE** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:03 am

Danubus wrote:This may come as a shock to many, but I dont care if your gay or not. I dont care if your gay and you serve in the military as long as you do your job and serve this country well. Your lifestyle and personal choices are something you will learn to live with. If you do not believe in a God then you will live your life thinking you dont have to pay for anything you do in life. If you do believe in a God you understand the concequences of your lifestyle. You make that choice, not I.

I have changed a lot of my feelings toward homosexuality since coming here to ALFA. I still dont feel its right and I still believe its a sin, but just because I believe that doesnt mean Im going to judge a person anymore. Its not right and i wont do it. (my brother in law is gay and i know a lot of gay and bi sexual people).

You have the right to push for your views and wanting to change things in America. It doesnt mean that I agree or hope that they come to pass. I just dont think it will happen for a long time yet. Maybe years from now when more of the liberal "children" grow up and take office and such then we will see those views being tolerated, but for now the children of the 30s-50s are still the majority and they wont vote for your views. A lot of their children probably more than most will also hold those views, but wont be the majority years to come.

This debate just gets old. We go from arguing about sexuality to religion to flames and we all just look stupid doing it. Debating things here wont change anything. Acting in real life and changing our moral compasses/tolerance will change those things. It takes time as we have seen with the intergration of blacks in American society. Some will say that still hasnt been done as well as they wanted, but quit your whining and make it happen or shut up

Ok...Im going back to trying to get my internet cafe network working like i want it. See you in a few hours when i read all the wonderful "go f*sk yourself, Danubus" replies.

What the hell?! People don't change their minds on their own! Especially old stubbern people. Government must change your mind for you through regulation. Shame on you Danubus for growing a little! Go fuck yourself Danubus!!!

Burt · Post by **Burt** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:16 am

Grand Fromage wrote:
mxlm wrote:Go f*sk yourself, Danubus

Mayhem · Post by **Mayhem** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:37 am

Who are you, and how did you get Danubus' password?

In all seriousness, good for you. A little more tolerance in the world is always a good thing.

Lusipher · Post by **Lusipher** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:38 am

Mulu · Post by **Mulu** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:13 am

Danubus wrote:If you do not believe in a God then you will live your life thinking you dont have to pay for anything you do in life.

Well, not to derail the thread, but I do have to point out that it is actually Christians who think they don't have to pay for anything they do in life, since all they have to do is ask forgiveness and they are saved and free of sin, no matter how many times they raped their children.

BTW, the Pope says that Protestant nonsense about Jesus saving you just by asking as opposed to devoting your life to helping the poor and the downtrodden is not real Christianity. I can't believe I had to actually respect something the Pope said. Of course in the same statement he then claimed all Athiests are Communists who committed more evil than any Christians, so my respect was fleeting.

Still, somewhere in there, the point is made. Believing in God and Jesus doesn't make you good. In fact, it gives you a cop out for being bad, unless you're Catholic. They live in guilt even for the stuff they *thought* of doing.

Back on topic, I know for a fact that the DADT policy has resulted in many qualfied military personnel involuntarily losing their careers, including a fair number of Arabic translators. That alone tells me it's flawed.

Veilan · Post by **Veilan** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:55 am

Mulu wrote:BTW, the Pope says that Protestant nonsense about Jesus saving you just by asking as opposed to devoting your life to helping the poor and the downtrodden is not real Christianity. I can't believe I had to actually respect something the Pope said. Of course in the same statement he then claimed all Athiests are Communists who committed more evil than any Christians, so my respect was fleeting.

What you're referring to here is that Protestants believe god loves all people, and therefore he can forgive you even if you don't purchase a letter of indulgence. Catholics, on the other hand, seem to believe god hates gays. Good deeds are necessary for both sects, which reflects in Protestantism through the work ethics. Which of course is less flashy.

Very rough generalization, but it's not true that Protestants believe you don't have to pay for anything. They actually think that you can't pay for everything with money, which, of course, gets less papal palaces built.