Solar variation ruled out in global warming

This is a forum for all off topic posts.
User avatar
Mulu
Mental Welfare Queen
Posts: 2065
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:25 am

Post by Mulu »

Charlie wrote:Mulu, don't take this the wrong way, but Jo Dirt, meaning people who live under the twenty-three grand a year mark, meaning most people, do not have the startup money for solar. Most of us live on the edge and paycheck to paycheck. What savings we can glom onto goes towards offspring or, in my case, addictions.
Well, Jo Dirt usually doesn't own his property anyway, so it's really a matter of giving incentives to the landlord. For enough incentives, rich people would eat their babies. ;)
Charlie wrote:What needs to be done is to reign in people who burn tires for electricity, and to introduce legislature making it mandatory for builders to have non-optional, and usable, solar systems on newly built homes.
Absolutely, but I would also include strong tax incentives to install on existing structures too, especially in the sun belt, and over time those incentives would become penalties for not installing. Basically make solar part of the building code, like fire exits.
Charlie wrote:I agree in not putting in solar panels onto areas where you get 3 feet of snow on your roof. That's just silly. Well not silly, stupid.
Depends how cheap they become. With a huge increase in the industry, prices would drop and technology would improve. A northern house burns a lot of electricity keeping cool in the summer, no reason to waste those rays if it's economical to capture them. I'm not saying it is economical, haven't looked into it, I'm just not ruling it out.
Charlie wrote: Unfortunately, corporations who's board members have an incurable gold fever pretty much have a chokehold on the US government. Land developers are also paving over every square inch of landscape in order to make a buck, or a few million. People who make money, vast sums of it, don't really care if they're doing something wrong. They want to live in comfort, and it is their legal right to do so. To them it's not an issue of morality, nor do they care. People who complain are merely fools to be brushed aside.
This is one of many reasons why we're failing as a species.
Charlie wrote:I gravely worry it's going to take a deep and ghastly wound from which we will never truly recover
About twenty years ago I said to a friend that people would not respond to the crisis of global warming and pollution until it hit them in the face. As long as they have breathable air and drinkable water, they'll just keep doing what they're doing. The problem is, global warming is slow to reverse. If you wait until it's really starting to hurt, well it's like cancer, you may not be able to recover at all.

Fortunately the lunkheads are losing power in the US, largely thanks to Iraq with a bit of help from Katrina. I think we're going to get a positive policy surge in 2009. Heck, even our governor Arnold is behind solar.

And apparently volunteerism won't work, so it's going to take a Federal ban on two-strokes.
Neverwinter Connections Dungeon Master since 2002! :D
Click for the best roleplaying!

On NWVault by me:
X-INV, X-COM, War of the Worlds, Lantan University.
User avatar
HATEFACE
Dr. Horrible
Posts: 1068
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 3:17 am
Location: A seething caldron of passive aggressive rage.

Post by HATEFACE »

Nyarlathotep wrote:GF Wrote
Japan should be uninhabitable by now
However isn't Japan now prone to attacks by giant monsters that were resurrected due to nuclear testing? Have we learned nothing from Godzilla's destruction of Tokyo?

Image



However I'm bored with the climate change debate, we've had it too many times already here, ironically the debate itself has reached a point where it could be considered a wasteful use of energy due to the fact that it is more than probable most participants are having this argument using grossly overpowered computers.

So lets argue about something else...I propose the treatment of endangered spieces, lets go with wolves for now.

http://www.defenders.org/releases/pr2007/pr070507.html

Enjoy.
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D Nyarlathotep, I like you. I want to give handshake and kiss. Wawawewa, very nice.
User avatar
HATEFACE
Dr. Horrible
Posts: 1068
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 3:17 am
Location: A seething caldron of passive aggressive rage.

Post by HATEFACE »

What about people who smoke?
User avatar
sgould72
Dire Badger
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:29 am
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Contact:

Post by sgould72 »

Why "big government" keeps burdening society with law on top of regulation on top of law:

Conservative, day 1 : "The problem with this country is the government is too intrusive. It is wasteful and inefficient, and just needs to stay out of matters that can be better handled by the free market and by responsible individuals making responsible decisions."

Conservative, 1 week later : "What? You want me to turn off the lights when I leave a room and stop driving my 10 mpg Hummer just because I'm poisoning the land, the air, the water, and killing every one around me? Fsk you!"

:roll:
Current PC - Glarin Goldseeker
User avatar
Nyarlathotep
Owlbear
Posts: 551
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 3:24 pm
Location: The Hollow
Contact:

Post by Nyarlathotep »

A less commonly addressed issue is the proverbial elephant in the room...is it already too late? Most of what I look at (I'm no expert or even well versed in this issue) seems to suggest that even if we do manage to completely divorce ourselves from fossil fuels in the very near future it is probable that the temperature will continue to warm for at least several decades (I've seen wildly varying numbers as too exactly how long but it does seem to be in agreement that it will continue as a result of accumulated effects). Now given that even the most progressive governments are looking only to cut emmissions in the coming decades rather than eliminate them entirely it does seem that in addition to cutting emmissions we should be putting some research into figuiring out how to cool the planet as well. More or less we are already screwed, so I'm wondering if anyone knows of any research into reversing the process? Mainly cause I doubt very much we are going to manage to go into 0 emmissions in 20 years and avoid the massive influx of carbon from the melting icecaps (at which point it will no longer matter what we do).
Lurker at the Threshold

Huntin' humans ain't nothin' but nothin'. They all run like scared little rabbits. Run, rabbit, run. Run, rabbit. Run, rabbit. Run rabbit. Run, rabbit, run! RUN, RABBIT, RUN! ~

Otis Driftwood, House of a Thousand Corpses
User avatar
Grand Fromage
Goon Spy
Posts: 1838
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 9:04 am
Location: Chengdu, Sichuan, China

Post by Grand Fromage »

It's too late to an extent--damage is already occurring. Coral reefs are dying, some inhabited islands in the Pacific have already sunk beneath the rising oceans, storm strength is growing. There's going to be a warming trend for a few decades no matter what we do. The push is to minimize the damage, the deadline for eliminating it has already passed. I think the hope is that the damage will reverse itself, since the Earth is very good at self-regulating if left alone. For example, the way the ozone layer has rapidly repaired itself since we stopped fucking with it. For the most part the idea is the climate will do the same once we reduce our influence enough.

And Zak... broken record mode. Do some research. Weather and climate are totally different animals.

Actually any time you say something assume I have replied with "do some research", until such time as you actually research something before talking. Note that listening to Rush Limbaugh does not count as research.
User avatar
HATEFACE
Dr. Horrible
Posts: 1068
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 3:17 am
Location: A seething caldron of passive aggressive rage.

Post by HATEFACE »

zomg, laggy double post. Oh, well push this thread toward a wonderful lockdown.
Last edited by HATEFACE on Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
HATEFACE
Dr. Horrible
Posts: 1068
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 3:17 am
Location: A seething caldron of passive aggressive rage.

Post by HATEFACE »

sgould72 wrote:Why "big government" keeps burdening society with law on top of regulation on top of law:

Conservative, day 1 : "The problem with this country is the government is too intrusive. It is wasteful and inefficient, and just needs to stay out of matters that can be better handled by the free market and by responsible individuals making responsible decisions."

Conservative, 1 week later : "What? You want me to turn off the lights when I leave a room and stop driving my 10 mpg Hummer just because I'm poisoning the land, the air, the water, and killing every one around me? Fsk you!"

:roll:
1. I don't drive a hummer, but I wouldn't yell my lungs out at my neighbor if he did. Hummers are not that efficient to own in Minnesota, I see them more in southern and western states.
2. I do turn off the lights when I leave a room. So, to for your bullshiting, I just want to give you the ol' friendly conservative fuck you, and your mother for pooping out a dick. :D (hint hint, that dick is you.)
User avatar
Nyarlathotep
Owlbear
Posts: 551
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 3:24 pm
Location: The Hollow
Contact:

Post by Nyarlathotep »

What I'm thinking of more is the release of carbon and methane in the permafrost and icecaps, creating a positive feedback loop of carbon release that will not be under our control or influence and the threshhold of no return for that process is fairly close. I understand the need for the current push, I just think its come a few decades too late and that it might be time to start figuiring out ways to address the warming itself as well as reducing its cause. From what I've been reading, though a good bit is contradictory, it seems that about 20 or 30 years is the point of no return on this and would require an significant emmissions reduction by that time to avoid (which to be cynical isn't happening).
Lurker at the Threshold

Huntin' humans ain't nothin' but nothin'. They all run like scared little rabbits. Run, rabbit, run. Run, rabbit. Run, rabbit. Run rabbit. Run, rabbit, run! RUN, RABBIT, RUN! ~

Otis Driftwood, House of a Thousand Corpses
User avatar
Mulu
Mental Welfare Queen
Posts: 2065
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:25 am

Post by Mulu »

Zakharra wrote:[Yet we are not able to accurately predict the weather for more than a few days.
I can't predict how you are going to drive your car, or where any particular accident is going to occur, but I can say with statistical certainty that at least 30,000 people are going to die this year from auto collisions.

You don't understand the science well enough to be able to test its validity. Daily accurate weather predictions are unnecessary to be able to determine long term trends.
Zakharra wrote: I would not buy a fuel efficient car. 1; I cannot afford the $2-3000 higher price, 2; None are big enough for what I have to use it for, 3; There are none that I would trust unless it's made by Subaru.
You would if it cost you an extra $5000.00 in taxes *not* to, which is precisely what it's going to take. And yes, stubborn stupid people are *precisely* why we have government regulations in the first place.
Nyar wrote:A less commonly addressed issue is the proverbial elephant in the room...is it already too late?
Oh, we're going to take a hit alright, but how bad that hit is will be determined by when we finally decide to apply the brakes on this runaway train. The sooner the better.
Nyar wrote:What I'm thinking of more is the release of carbon and methane in the permafrost and icecaps, creating a positive feedback loop of carbon release that will not be under our control or influence and the threshhold of no return for that process is fairly close.
Yes, that's a possibility too. The absolute worst possibility is a massive release of methane from the ocean floor, which would wipe out humanity and kill upwards of 90% of all life on Earth. If we've already crossed the point of no return on that one, well, it's been nice knowing you all. I hope your rider mowers were worth it.
Neverwinter Connections Dungeon Master since 2002! :D
Click for the best roleplaying!

On NWVault by me:
X-INV, X-COM, War of the Worlds, Lantan University.
User avatar
HATEFACE
Dr. Horrible
Posts: 1068
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 3:17 am
Location: A seething caldron of passive aggressive rage.

Post by HATEFACE »

Nyarlathotep wrote:What I'm thinking of more is the release of carbon and methane in the permafrost and icecaps, creating a positive feedback loop of carbon release that will not be under our control or influence and the threshhold of no return for that process is fairly close. I understand the need for the current push, I just think its come a few decades too late and that it might be time to start figuiring out ways to address the warming itself as well as reducing its cause. From what I've been reading, though a good bit is contradictory, it seems that about 20 or 30 years is the point of no return on this and would require an significant emmissions reduction by that time to avoid (which to be cynical isn't happening).
There's only one solution. Space hobos. Now, now, hear me out. . . We all live up in space. Okay, so there isn't that much oxygen, but we won't be damaging the planet while we're up there. We'll just be borrowing just enough to keep us alive and coherent. - Heck, we don't even need coherent! I think it's a sound solution to our global problem. Or better yet, how about we invent our own clean plentiful and powerful energy source from our own imagination. We'll call it "Drufpbaal." With Drufpbaal, we'll be able to traverse the stars and populate other planets! :eek: zomg? wut you guys don't like Drufpbaal? What if we called it dark matter instead. What is the point of our continued existance? Not trying to sound all Nihilistic and shit, but just playing devils advocate, i.e. pulling a killthorne. No energy we have or could use would get us to other stars in any reasonable amount of time, even then we're talking about a generational ship in which lives are dependent upon wonderful technological systems that could potentially go awry. Even so, we better chose the right solar system to go to don't want to pick one that is barren and devoid of sustaining life. Say we find a planet to sustain our lives long into the future. We will see the end of it all. All galaxy clusters disapearing, decaying and giving way to entropy. But who knows. I see the chances of our survival pretty fuckin limited. Best to enjoy your time while you have it and if you believe in a god and that gives you solace on your death bed. **Walks off whistling Always look on the bright side of life.**
User avatar
Charlie
Dire Badger
Posts: 161
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 2:41 am
Location: Alvin, TX
Contact:

Post by Charlie »

Mulu wrote:Fortunately the lunkheads are losing power in the US, largely thanks to Iraq with a bit of help from Katrina. I think we're going to get a positive policy surge in 2009. Heck, even our governor Arnold is behind solar.

And apparently volunteerism won't work, so it's going to take a Federal ban on two-strokes.
On the two-stroke engine issue, I believe it's small fry compared to larger issues. It's like worying about the minnows, when a shark is chewing on your leg. By the time everyone converts to fuel cell or electrical, 2 stroke engines will be antiquated, probably replaced by a methane powered unit, or small fuel cell.

Though space habitat modules may eventually become a necessity. If humanity really wanted to, we could bus most everyone into orbit. We don't do it now, because it's not a necessity.... and most space exploration costs involve overbeefed paychecks.

On Wolves:
Ranchers hate wolves, but far too many rancher I met were also complete bastards. Some were nice, but in general they live for the survival of their cows, and little else. I mentioned wolves mostly eat mice publicly at the grocery store, and I got banned from the gunshop while I lived in New Mexico. The gunshop owner made part of his living trapping or shooting "problem wolves" and regularly pushed a fear tactic to generate business. One of his public flyers had a photo of a half eaten lamb laying akimbo up against a barbwire fence, labeled: This could be your child, don't let them release wolves at xyz. Crazy stuff.

Also, the people involved with releasing and tracking wolves are incompitant. They cannot keep the animals from doing damage to livestock, and they also release the wolves close to populated areas.
Last edited by Charlie on Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Stormseeker
Orc Champion
Posts: 460
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:53 pm
Location: horseshoe bend, arkansas-usa
Contact:

Post by Stormseeker »

Well i am joe dirt that own's property. I live north of your belt so the panels are out. If i did live in your belt it would cost me more to have the solar panels...my friend you have forgotten that a lot of homes that live in the gulf states must have or be on what is called a "wind pool" for their home owner insurance. Throw in solar panels that cost more than the roof it's self and cost for insurance would go up atleast 3x what they are now in those areas. If major hurricanes hit then cost for everyone in the states will go up to offset what the insurance companies are paying out.
The batteries for the new ford hybrids cost $5,000, and ford isn't quite sure what to do with these hazardous batteries when they do die.
As joe dirt i buy what is cost effective. Now to save a bit i do buy the better light bulbs, do regular maintenance on my vehichles, etc..
When i remodel i put in better window's and insulation. If solar or wind was cost effective i would do it..but the electric motors don't have the shelf life of a engine nor do the batteries last. So that is out till it gets cheaper and the technology improves and untill then i will drive my 30 year old chevy truck that still has another 15years of life left in it.(cost me $600)

What makes many of us joe dirt types mad is people telling us how to live. I got al gore with his heated outside swimming pool telling me to conserve energy. Or some singer telling me to use less toilet paper when they are living in a mansion(and own a couple of homes) and being flown around on a private jet. Some producer saying he is better than me because he drives a electric car, say's i am waistfull and harmfull to the enviroment, but the bastard is watering a 15acre property in the desert, while all i water is the garden that produces the food.
So yes thats why i and many like me tell you to kiss our arses.
User avatar
Charlie
Dire Badger
Posts: 161
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 2:41 am
Location: Alvin, TX
Contact:

Post by Charlie »

The hybreds come with warentee on the batteries for 7 or ten years, a long time, and NAPA will buy back spent batteries for recycling. My brother in law owns one, and yes they're way overpriced.
Stormseeker
Orc Champion
Posts: 460
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:53 pm
Location: horseshoe bend, arkansas-usa
Contact:

Post by Stormseeker »

*grins* I got my figures from my uncle this past weekend, he owns a couple of ford dealerships. Look at the warranty paperwork on the vechichle, unless he got the extended contract for only covers the cost of the batteries for five years...and they are already starting to have problems with them. On a different note he said that ford will be going to more deseil driving passenger cars and small trucks.
Don't know about wolves but if we don't keep the coyote population down then they eat calves...i figure wolves would be the same. They are a whole lot easier to catch than mice.
Post Reply