Amnesty attacks US over abuses

[Grand Fromage]

this thread is suck. lockpls

lol hotlink denied, bitch

[paazin]

this thread is suck. lockpls

lol hotlink denied, b*tch

Whatcha talkin' bout?

[Grand Fromage]

Whatcha talkin' bout?

willis

[mxlm]

Dan, serious question: what is it about 'torture is not a reliable method for acquiring information' that you don't understand?

Nekulor, why do you think AQ tortures captured Americans? I doubt they're attempting to extract information. Certainly the videos of beheadings would suggest this. So what do they gain from it?

Perhaps they want us to employ torture. Perhaps our employing torture makes it less likely that AQ/AQI will surrender. This is precisely the sort of thing Dave Grossman was arguing in On Killing.

What does America gain from torture? What does it lose?

Note that 'the information war' was not a reference to 'making Euros like us'. It was a reference to the fact that the misnamed Global War on Terror is in reality a global counterinsurgency effort. PR is a vital part of COIN.

[Nekulor]

I realize this is essentially a global counterinsurgency, and that the GWOT is just a PR tactic by the administration and the pentagon, but I don't believe its wrong because it has that purpose. If you really want to argue it, this was started by us a long time ago when we helped groups like these against the soviets, then they turned on us in the late 80's, early 90's when our relations with the former USSR improved. Possibly, the cold war's reach is still felt in this as a result.

[mxlm]

You miss my point.

PR is vital to COIN, as it is an integral part of winning hearts and minds. Torture hurts our PR in a big way. It also reduces the likelihood that that our enemies will surrender and makes it harder to deprogram them (and, yes, you can deprogram fanatical terrorists. It's been done, and is being done).

[Mulu]

I disagree with stormseeker, actual torture is probably occurring, its just the majority of us don't care.

No, the sick minority of us don't care.

If they waterboard a person suspected and detained for terrorism, they probably
a)Have a reason, like they have verified he is an enemy combatant and
b) are under FBI or CIA supervision to make it effective.

This isn't like Abu Graihb where prisoners were tortured and dehumanized for fun.

What makes you think so? It's a lot of the same people. The military intelligence and CIA agents travel and operate at all facilities. And it's a lot more than waterboarding. It's real torture, poke out your eyes, freeze you, amputate you, cause organ failure and even death. The rendition sites are all classified, so if that stuff was happening at AG where it was a recognized facility just imagine what's going on in secret facilities. This is not college hazing.

But they do torture Americans, and the international community at large DOES NOT SEEM TO CARE!!

What on Earth are you talking about? This is starting to read like a Zak post.

The last time something similar happened to a US citizen was the Iranian Hostage Crisis

They were held, not tortured. They were often paraded blindfolded before local crowds and television cameras, "experienced long periods of solitary confinement, and for months were forbidden to speak to one another." That's bad, but it's not even in the same ballpark as what we've done to detainees.

and I didn't see any other nations stepping up to tell Iran to give the hostages back to us or face multinational military action.

We're the big boy on the block. Nobody has to defend us, and we strongly discourage other countries from interfering in our diplomacy, especially in times of crisis.

I'm tired of people smiling and saying wonderfully nice things to people like Amadinejhad who deserve to be shot and left to die in a hole.

I'm not a big fan of the Iranian president, but what exactly has he done that deserves capital punishment? He talks big about Isreal and the US, but what actions has he actually taken? Snatching some British troops and then releasing them unharmed doesn't exactly qualify for the death penalty. Neither does denying the Holocaust.

[mxlm]

In such a war which we're involved in now, there are no true civilians.

Interesting point of view. How do you respond to the view (from LTC Odom) that "Civilians on the battlefield in counter insurgency are not only part of the battlefield; they are the objective. There are no collateral casualties. All non-insurgent casualties are friendly"

[Swift]

sign that your society and your democracy is terribly sick and diseased

And your country is one of our greatest allies and hey..you were founded as this huge prison colony. All the dregs and mentally ill were the basis of your society. Sick and diseased, indeed.

lawl. I like how the best defence you guys can come back with (showing your absolute complete lack of knowledge of anything that doesn't have an American flag on it, mind you) is that Australia was founded as a prison colony, and therefore we are somehow worse as a society than you are.

You do know that no one here is ashamed about the origins of our country, right?

[Magonushi]

sign that your society and your democracy is terribly sick and diseased

And your country is one of our greatest allies and hey..you were founded as this huge prison colony. All the dregs and mentally ill were the basis of your society. Sick and diseased, indeed.

lawl. I like how the best defence you guys can come back with (showing your absolute complete lack of knowledge of anything that doesn't have an American flag on it, mind you) is that Australia was founded as a prison colony, and therefore we are somehow worse as a society than you are.

You do know that no one here is ashamed about the origins of our country, right?

Agreed.

Technically Australians are only lesser outlaws when compared to Americans. Hell, most of them only failed to pay taxes; we're a nation of militant traitors. Last I checked treason was a higher crime than tax evasion.

[Grand Fromage]

Having been to Australia, I can say with certainty that the country proves that a foundation on the solid backs of baby-eating rapist murderers so foul they were sent to the opposite side of the planet produces an excellent bunch of people, if mixed liberally with drop bears and beer.

[NickD]

Australians suck and they should all be water boarded.

[Rotku]

"However unwillingly a person who has a strong opinion may admit the possibility that his opinion may be false, he ought to be moved by the consideration that, however true it may be, if it is not fully, frequently, and fearlessly discussed, it will be held as a dead dogma, not a living truth." ~ John Stuart Mill

I disagree with stormseeker, actual torture is probably occurring, its just the majority of us don't care.

No, I know why its the case, because they can't catch the terrorists, and when they do, Amnesty International shows up with a team of lawyers to represent him! Due process for terrorist leaders should consist of a gun, a bullet, and a hole in the ground.

Sorry GF, I didn't know Unlawful combatants were given Habeas corpus under the US constitution. By the way, they have NO POW STATUS and are essentially not allowed the right to trial by peers.
Here is an excerpt of the 2005 law that details this, amended 2006:
"No court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the United States who has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination." 28 U.S.C. 2241(e)(1) (Section 7)

In other words, no non-citizen held as a potential unlawful enemy combatant may seek habeas corpus relief. Such detainees must simply wait until the military sees fit to convene a detainee status review tribunal (under the procedures described in the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005).

They have to wait for military status hearings, and because all detainees not classified as lawful enemy combatants or civilians under GCIII, article 4, they are subject to our domestic laws, which have been determined to hand them over to the military until status as a combatant can be determined.

Thusly, my conclusion is:
1) Politicians need to stop fighting wars, leave that to the soldiers.
2) Let the military handle tactics like they should. Military maneuvers are not elements of political policy.
3) Tell the international rights organizations like AI and their allies to shove it. I'm tired of our policy decisions being influenced by people who have no stake in our government or our country. If they don't like how we do things, shove off and leave us alone.
4) Do what it takes to win. Winning a war isn't a popularity contest. War is ugly. If war wasn't ugly it would be called something else. You fight wars to defend your country or stop a threat that is growing in another part of the world, not to be crowned Miss Universe by the United Nations Council on Being a Pansy. War is won with blood, sweat and tears, not by playing whack-a-mole because congress says you have to.

Welcome, friends, to the end of democracy. Welcome to the end of our way of life, where individual freedom takes first and foremost priority. Welcome. I am starting to see how you can use 'liberal' as a bad term, with views like those



[Edit]Completely but this is my 5000th post. What a waste.

[Veilan]

[Edit]Completely but this is my 5000th post. What a waste.

Well stop spamming then, you degenerated criminal, unless you want to earn a waterboarding.

[Nekulor]

"
Welcome, friends, to the end of democracy. Welcome to the end of our way of life, where individual freedom takes first and foremost priority. Welcome. I am starting to see how you can use 'liberal' as a bad term, with views like those



[Edit]Completely but this is my 5000th post. What a waste.

I'll concede the point. . . I feel that the government should focus on two things, maintaining law and order, and defending us, with minor roles in economic, education, and scientific regulation (Read: make the departments more focused on regulation and setting guidelines, raising public awareness about programs, ect.). I don't think the government should provide social welfare . I think it punishes those who work hard and rewards the lazy honestly.

I don't think we should provide welfare, I think people should work to earn their money. The disabled, yes. John Doe Doesnothing, no. I can support temporary support programs for those that need it (6-8 months) but I don't condone them living off it. I don't see why I should have to support people with my hard earned money when they are essentially a bane upon society, contributing little to nothing to the overall nation or economy. Yes, it is a dark, angry and cold way to look at it, but I look at overall efficiancy and reducing government spending, not from the humanitarian point of view. I think charity should support the needy, like it always has. More charity, less forced donations to the poor.

Ok, now to get off that tangent. Yes, I don't care what a bunch of foreign suspected terrorists suffer or do not suffer in our prisons around the world, because, ultimately, I'm not the one who is being tortured. Right now, its illegal under US law to torture a citizen, and it will stay that way, torture of a foreign fighter is not illegal under the Detainee Treatment act of a few years ago. I'm not saying we should take them all and torture them, nor am I saying that torture is even good and certainly not that it is humane, but if it is deemed absolutely necessary, then it must be done.

I'd rather not see random and spontaneous torture in gitmo and other places, but I'm not making that decision, and it is ultimately up to the military. I still believe, in any case, that the foreign insurgents deserve no rights and no quarter from us. They show us nothing but contempt, and will fight to the last to kill us all. I don't much like the idea of one of them ever having the chance to reenter society after we've detained them and proven them guilty of crimes against humanity.