Iran

[MorbidKate]

You're being rather judgemental. You have no idea what they are going through, nor do you know how you would react in their situation, military training or not. You're also assuming they're not being tortured or abused, which is a strange assumption to make.

If Iran has the intention of eventually letting them go and just wants to make a statement they won't abuse the Brits and there is nothing at all to suggest they are being mistreated. This is a PR confrontation Nick, that's all.

So far it's just the sailors who are shooting their mouths off though I can imagine the Royal Marines in the group aren't happy at all because it's just encouraging the Iranians.

You can be sure the British government is not pleased with these letters that are undermining their efforts to prove the Iranians wrong.

Kate

[NickD]

[I have been threatened to be shot in both America and England. In both countries, I have seen homelessness far surpassing that of any other country I have ever been to. Obviously such violent cultures with so little regard for their own people that they let so many sink to such deeps in their quality of life is a barbaric and savage culture that shouldn't be afforded the same freedoms and rights as those of us in civilized societies.

That's neither clever or humorous.

It is largely true, though.

[Overfilled Cup]

but perhaps they are dressing her up to hide any visible signs of torture?

I do doubt they are being physically tortored. But much can be accomplished through hunger and guns pointed at you.

There is no justification for not releasing them immediately. If Iran wants what they have been asking from the international community (nuclear weapons) then kidnapping British sailors in international waters was a very bad move.

[NickD]

If Iran has the intention of eventually letting them go and just wants to make a statement they won't abuse the Brits and there is nothing at all to suggest they are being mistreated. This is a PR confrontation Nick, that's all.

So far it's just the sailors who are shooting their mouths off though I can imagine the Royal Marines in the group aren't happy at all because it's just encouraging the Iranians.

You can be sure the British government is not pleased with these letters that are undermining their efforts to prove the Iranians wrong.

Again, you're being very judgemental based on assumptions of a situation you know nothing about. The 15 are unlikely to know anything about what's going on outside their prison cells. They're probably getting deprived of food and sleep and are getting brainwashed to believe that they are going to get an unfair trial in Iran and quite possibly executed and the British have accepted that they were in Iran waters, so they won't intervene. And the only way they can get out of it alive is to co-operate. I couldn't say I would do any different, and if you say you would, then you are deluding yourself.

[ç i p h é r]

Perhaps marginally true at best, Nick. Can you get a gun pointed in your face in America? Sure. Stick your nose in someone else's business in the wrong part of town. But is that common place here? Not even remotely.

There are certainly "bad neighborhoods" in every city or state, but those are truly few and far between. Do you think the Middle East is devoid of poverty and violence? Not by a long shot. Even without the crazies. Consider that there is no minimum wage in that part of the world. There are no labor rights. There are no civil rights. Consider as well that punishments are often very severe and that there is no entitlement to due process. If the government takes issue with you, expect to find yourself in a deep, dark cell somewhere if you're lucky. If you're not, well all I can say is that there were plenty of rumors of the sorts of interrogations people were subjected too. I can't substantiate any of that of course, but I can't imagine it's very far from the truth. And this is what you can expect of the more moderate nations like Jordan. The radical, fundamentalist nations are just off the charts.

I would also wager that the average income per household in America exceeds that of most nations - the exceptions are likely to be small well to do countries like Kuwait and Switzerland. America is not the land of opportunity by chance. Wealth creation in this country is a very real thing and a LOT of immigrants have and are realizing that opportunity. Perhaps things have changed in the years since I left the Middle East, but somehow I doubt it. It certainly doesn't look like it has changed much. It was fairly common back then to have "worker pools" where laborers gathered in the hopes of finding work. We would drive by every so often to pick up someone with the requisite skills to work our garden or mend our fences and do a variety of menial tasks. And they were all willing to work for the cost of a few loaves of bread. Can you imagine that? Do you have any idea how much we pay even the most menial laborers in America?

Whether you want to believe it or not, Americans are among the most wealthy, compassionate, and giving people in the world and that is evidenced by the private donations made by American citizens to the poor, the destitute, and those that endure hardships all across the globe. And that doesn't factor in what our government pledges in foreign aid. Conversely, what nations, what people send food or money to us when our cities, like New Orleans, are devastated? Does anyone? I don't know, but I doubt it.

Just because we are capitalists does not mean we are not compassionate. And just because you wound up in the wrong neighborhood or went looking for trouble does not mean that America is run by street gangs and drug traffickers. If you believe that, you've been watching too many movies. People who think ill of America typically do not do so on the basis of any real facts about Americans, and therein lies our biggest problem. I've come to know many foreign ex patriots living and working in America, and they all expressed surprised at how DIFFERENT America was from their perceptions going in. And, those I've known who've had to go back have done so with heavy hearts.

[Jeppan]

Cipher and Dan continues their numbnut partnership. Your pure existance explains how someone like Bush can be elected twice.

No, Jeppan. That's a childish characterization. I'm obviously very PRO American and I express my opinion from that point of view, but there's a good reason for it. Unlike you, I have had the benefit of living in the generally barbaric culture of the Middle East as well as the more civilized culture of a free Western society, and I believe that the American/Western way of life is unquestionably superior. If you think the average American is ignorant, you have not had the privilege of meeting the average Arab who believes that Jews are the sons of pigs.

So you have been to places. A news flash for you, so have I. We have different experiences. That does not give me nor you the right to call a culture superior. Your statement that I have bolded does however give me, and I would guess many others here, a good understanding of what a holier-than-thou selfrightrightous bullshitter you are. It also explains why you vote for Bush.

It seems that I have learned something from living abroad. Something about understanding other cultures. You should try it next time you leave your house.

As for comparing the level of ignorance I am sad that you think that it is alright that the people of a third world country, on the average, have the same level understanding as people in your own "superior" country. Maybe you should advocate that the billions and billions spent on this christian crusade into Iraq, should be put into your own schoolsystem. That would benifit both people in the US and everywhere in the world. Think about that.

[ç i p h é r]

So what do you know about the Middle East besides what's printed in the headlines? Oh I'm certain people will disagree with me on my conclusions, certainly Arabs themselves, but unlike you, I don't have a problem with a difference of opinion. What I don't do is go around calling my opponents names. I stopped doing that in grade school so I'm not sure what that says about the sort of educational system that produced you, but I suspect that you weren't exactly a bright spot on their academic record.

News flash for you: I have every right to come to whatever conclusion I want to about TWO sets of cultures I have experienced first hand, at least so long as I live in a FREE SOCIETY that allows me to hold my own opinions, thank you very much.

p.s. I did vote for Bush the second time around, mainly because I felt that John Kerry lacked the conviction necessary to deal with terrorism and the events abroad that Bush started. If Bush is weak on leadership, Kerry is weaker. In my opinion, of course. What I'm looking for in THIS election is STRONG LEADERSHIP. I generally could care less for party affiliation and wish we were not constrained by two parties.

[Jeppan]

You are funny Cipher, cause your selfimage is so far from what you portray to others. You are above calling names and then you do. Rich.

You are right to your opinion of course. I reserve the right to critizise it. Fortunatly for me it is shooting sitting ducks.

It would be entertaining to see what kind of work you did in the middle east. Let me guess... soldier in the US army? prospector for an oil company? PR agent for a tobacco company?

[mxlm]

How do we get from 'Iran kidnaps sailors' to 'American way of life is/isn't superior' and 'those who dislike America are/aren't ignorant'?

[ç i p h é r]

I was born there.

You want to criticize me? Go right ahead. This is a forum for discussion after all. But what exactly is the basis for your opinion on the Middle East and America? You're clearly Anti American and I would wager that you are also Anti Semitic. Have you ever lived in any of the places you profess to hate so much? It might change your point of view or it might not. It certainly changed mine.

[ç i p h é r]

How do we get from 'Iran kidnaps sailors' to 'American way of life is/isn't superior' and 'those who dislike America are/aren't ignorant'?

We got there when the usual suspects who love to hate America began their usual routine. Once that begins, I'm obliged to inject my voice to counter theirs by expressing my great affection for this country. A slippery slope it is.

[Lusipher]

Danubus wrote:
This is how the Iranians roll...we know. Civilized? Nope. Savages...yes.


Yes, I'm sure broad sweeping generalizations and borderline racism will help the situation now and in the future.

Civilized people dont kidnap others and hold them hostage. Its not racism. How do you see that? I would say that if they were Britians holding Iranians or Americans.

As for the other comments Cassiel made. Dude, I said in my post that they will goto the UN and exhaust their means there and then they will have to make a choice. Never once did I say they should or should not bomb them. It wont bother me if they do, because I personally feel the Iranian government deserves its ass kicked. Not the Iranian people...which will actually suffer most of all. If there was a way to seperate the two then that would be wonderful, but we both know it isnt going to happen.

All you other dipshits attacking me...just stop. Nothing in my post said I was all for the Brits and the US to goto war with Iran. I stated that the Iranians did indeed fake the first GPS coordinates they showed then said that was wrong and came back and showed another new coordinates they made up with the Brits being in Iranian waters.

Cassiel, a lot of your comments crack me up. Your an American overseas living in Britian and you give me shit about standing up and being patriotic or at least having some balls and standing up for whats right in the world. Your precious Democrats have weakened this nation with their fight with President Bush on Iraq. We look weak to other nations when our own Congress tries to undercut the Commander in Chief. This is why the Iranians are doing what they are doing. They feel embolden now that they can do whatever they want and know the liberal weak minded fools like yourself will roll over and say "How far do you want me to bend over?" Come on..

Ive said it before and I will say it again. Let them exhaust their means in the UN. It wont do a bit of good, but they will be doing what they have to do. The UN is a worthless body and personally I wish they would move it out of America and put it in Europe. All they do (as most Europeans do) are argue and bicker and accomplish nothing. Its good to try the Diplomacy route, but we all know that over the past 10 years the UN honestly has been a non viable means to get anything done around the world. Its corrupt and has no real way to enforce anything.

If things dont work out in the UN then as I said its a game of chicken. Whomever blinks first will win. Its just going to be one hell of a scary game, but the Brits arent going to puss out and the Americans will back them up as we should.

Also, as a Moderator Cassiel you got some balls calling me names when your own ass should get busted for it.

[Lusipher]

You can be sure the British government is not pleased with these letters that are undermining their efforts to prove the Iranians wrong.

How do you or anyone know that they werent forced to write the letters? They could have forced them to write them or withheld food, water, or anything else..even violence. I seriously doubt as most critics around the world, that this woman and the other sailor wrote anything willingly.

[ç i p h é r]

OT

Jeppan et al: Here's a pair of books which you and others may find interesting. It's about the real life experiences of two very different women in the Islamic world:

Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali (experiences of a Somali Muslim)
Because They Hate by Brigitte Gabriel (experiences of a Lebanese Christian)

You can find them on Amazon or possibly at your local bookstore or library. Maybe it will give you something more to think about.

[Zakharra]

The women has been Islamified.....

Did they use their special Islam-O-Gun?



Cipher and Dan continues their numbnut partnership. Your pure existance explains how someone like Bush can be elected twice.

They put a headscarf on her. Isn't that by itself a violation of the Geneva Convention? Is Iran a signatory member of the GC?

LOL

I have no idea if Iran signed or not but it is rich to see you speak about the Geneva convention Zak. How about GITMO or the tortureprisons around the world that US uses? Get a grip man.

First off, what is happening in Gitmo is NOT TORTURE! There has not been one, not one! Single case of alleged torture proven there. If there was, there would be lawsuits galore since the International Red Cross, hundreds of lawyers and I think Amnesty International are at Gitmo. People like to say that torture is going on, but until one single case is substansiated(sp), then lay off your garbage Jeppen. I am tired of your US hatred (yes, I say it is hatred, since it seems you automatically take the side of ANY view against the US)

Many here are constantly ragging on the US about supposed GC violations, but ignore when others do it on a regular basis. Being paraded like the captured sailors are, is, as I recall, against the GC. Why isn't that being discussed here? If the US was doing that, I would bet $1000 that it would be discussed immediately.