Bullying Discussion

zicada · Post by **zicada** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:44 pm

ALFAModerator2 wrote:
zicada wrote:I would like some actual hands on url's to threads where people are outright being bullied. From reading the past posts in this thread, it seems like its happening quite a lot.
Threads of this nature are moved to the moderators' forum. It is private, and intentionally so; making the content publically viewable makes it the subject for more (destructive) discourse.

There are ten people with access to the forum, if I understand permissions properly (the four currently-appointed moderators, our five admin, and the CC head), and I am sure that the majority, if not all, of them would testify to how vile the content therein gets.

The forums database is huge. I'm sure there's gotta be thousands of instances in the last couple of years alone. I just haven't seen too much of it myself. Also, as i remember from my many years of having full access to all forums: Al ot of the actually bad stuff happens in forums regular members do not have access to.

oldgrayrogue · Post by **oldgrayrogue** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:45 pm

Zicada: Honestly, I really don't feel inclined to troll though all the forums to provide you with the linked examples you are looking for, or to get into a debate about what does and what does not fall within your personal definition of bullying or general incivility. We all have our own individual sensibilities. That's not really the point IMO. What is at issue is a standard of conduct to be observed by a community as a whole. I think my definitions of bullying are sufficiently descriptive for you to find the examples you seek if you are inclined to look. The point that I think myself and others are trying to make, is that we joined this community to be part of the rich, mature RP gaming environment that it is billed to be, not the butt of annoying brown hat internets photochopped pranks.

oldgrayrogue · Post by **oldgrayrogue** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:52 pm

Sorry then Helios -- no offense.

Wynna · Post by **Wynna** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:53 pm

I would like to request that this not get derailed into an argumentative sidetrack. Several very good points have been presented on both sides now and I appreciate the open discussion of the topic itself.

Thank you.

zicada · Post by **zicada** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:53 pm

oldgrayrogue wrote:Zicada: Honestly, I really don't feel inclined to troll though all the forums to provide you with the linked examples you are looking for, or to get into a debate about what does and what does not fall within your personal definition of bullying or general incivility. We all have our own individual sensibilities. That's not really the point IMO. What is at issue is a standard of conduct to be observed by a community as a whole. I think my definitions of bullying are sufficiently descriptive for you to find the examples you seek if you are inclined to look. The point that I think myself and others are trying to make, is that we joined this community to be part of the rich, mature RP gaming environment that it is billed to be, not the butt of annoying brown hat internets photochopped pranks.

But, dear sir. All that stuff happens in off topic. Are you saying you want 100% serious, mature in there too ? Absolutely no fun and humor, just uptight, mature, mom and pop, vanilla, seriousness ?

And also, what does photchopping a brown hat have to do with the subject in question, namely bullying ?

I actually don't understand your definition of what bullying is, that is why i was asking. It is also what this thread is about. I asked for URLs because that would be an easy way of explaining to me what you mean. Of course you could just as well explain it right here. You and a few others make it sound like its a HUGE problem, yet i don't remember seeing many instances of actual bullying.

Lusipher · Post by **Lusipher** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:01 pm

The forums are moderated but what happens in IRC is quite visible to all.

I agree. I would ask our wonderful new Mods to actually step into IRC and moderate there. Cause its 10x worse in chat than it is on the forums. If a new person came to ALFA and joined the current #alfa channel they would not be impressed with what they see.

HATEFACE · Post by **HATEFACE** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:02 pm

Moderated: Godwin's law is in effect here

Consider the fact that most people want this place to be a loose environ to have fun and goof around. After all what is the purpose of a game if not to have fun? It should not be at someone elses expense. Now Nalo has clarified his confusion and I get where he is coming from. I think its disingenious of you to claim it as bullying.

zicada · Post by **zicada** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:08 pm

Lusipher wrote:
The forums are moderated but what happens in IRC is quite visible to all.

I agree. I would ask our wonderful new Mods to actually step into IRC and moderate there. Cause its 10x worse in chat than it is on the forums. If a new person came to ALFA and joined the current #alfa channel they would not be impressed with what they see.

Sir, but you love it there. And you most definitely contribute greatly to all the things some of these people hate so much, including alot of the things you now for some reason claim are reasons for newbies to leave. Make up your mind sir, please.

#alandfaraway is where newbies end up. Thats where people should be to help them settle in. #alfa remains what it is. If the current mods should get into #alfa and employ the same styles used on the forums currently, there would be rather bad uproar i should think. Most likely not worth it.

Nalo Jade · Post by **Nalo Jade** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:09 pm

RE: The hat thing

It has come to my understanding that the hat was not intended as a prank.

I assumed it was a negative context and used the google to find the meaning, since I am new to a lot of the lingo. It seemed to fit, along with possibly the "black hat" thing.

I guess it could really have been an inside joke, but I don't think that was Helios's intention. I think it was just an unfortunate coincidence, and that he really meant well.

HATEFACE · Post by **HATEFACE** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:17 pm

Moderated: Godwin's law is in effect here

You bring the crowns and heads of conquered kings to my city steps! You insult my queen! *winks at zicada* You threaten my people with balls and strikes! Oh I choose my words carefully ALFAn! Perhaps you should have done the same.

Lusipher · Post by **Lusipher** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:18 pm

If the current mods should get into #alfa and employ the same styles used on the forums currently, there would be rather bad uproar i should think. Most likely not worth it.

We both know the other channel isnt even being used and has no reason for even being up. #alfa is the irc face of this project and when you, PD, TT, Mord, and Burt act as immature as you do in there new folks wont stay long. None of you have any intentions of calming down. In all honesty the only uproar I think that would be heard would be coming from those who got a swift kick in the butt out of the chat room.

Its also this same group thats been the most vocal on the forums about moderation. You are rebelling. Thats all this is. Its close to how children act when told not to do something.

If you guys want to be over the top make another chat channel and do it in there or goto your Vent server and make fun of people in there. I honestly would like to see the mods show up in IRC, though. Right now its basically the wild wild west.

Keryn · Post by **Keryn** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:18 pm

Helios wrote:Moderated: Godwin's law is in effect here

Consider the fact that most people want this place to be a loose environ to have fun and goof around. After all what is the purpose of a game if not to have fun? It should not be at someone elses expense. Now Nalo has clarified his confusion and I get where he is coming from. I think its disingenious of you to claim it as bullying.

Helios, feel free to be in a loose environment, and goof around, this DOESN'T need to include being offensive to others. Specially to those you don't know.

Who is "X Person" to tell me to shut up when asking to please have some respect for others, or to insult me without any reasons for it?

Is this your, definition of fun and loose environment?

And Zic, Im not sure why do you say that newbs don't get into #Alfa, because, I see them getting there everyday.

zicada · Post by **zicada** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:24 pm

Lusipher wrote:
If the current mods should get into #alfa and employ the same styles used on the forums currently, there would be rather bad uproar i should think. Most likely not worth it.
We both know the other channel isnt even being used and has no reason for even being up. #alfa is the irc face of this project and when you, PD, TT, Mord, and Burt act as immature as you do in there new folks wont stay long. None of you have any intentions of calming down. In all honesty the only uproar I think that would be heard would be coming from those who got a swift kick in the butt out of the chat room.

Its also this same group that's been the most vocal on the forums about moderation. You are rebelling. That's all this is. Its close to how children act when told not to do something.

If you guys want to be over the top make another chat channel and do it in there or goto your Vent server and make fun of people in there. I honestly would like to see the mods show up in IRC, though. Right now its basically the wild wild west.

lol. Dan. Seriously. Ive got logs of #alfa going back years. How do you possibly count yourself in another "group" ? You're exactly like everyone else on that channel!

In fact, you're almost scaring me typing this up just mere days after youve been acting just as much as a "rebel" as anyone else.

Just.. WOW.

HATEFACE · Post by **HATEFACE** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:39 pm

Keryn wrote:
Helios wrote:Moderated: Godwin's law is in effect here

Consider the fact that most people want this place to be a loose environ to have fun and goof around. After all what is the purpose of a game if not to have fun? It should not be at someone elses expense. Now Nalo has clarified his confusion and I get where he is coming from. I think its disingenious of you to claim it as bullying.
Helios, feel free to be in a loose environment, and goof around, this DOESN'T need to include being offensive to others. Specially to those you don't know.

Who is "X Person" to tell me to shut up when asking to please have some respect for others, or to insult me without any reasons for it?

Is this your, definition of fun and loose environment?

And Zic, Im not sure why do you say that newbs don't get into #Alfa, because, I see them getting there everyday.

Yup, I'm glad we agree it shouldn't be offensive.

I don't know who this "X person" is. I searched the user database and maybe found a few similiar but no X and then a Person. They were close but no ciggy. I think they might be old members any way.

Anyway. Danubus is right. We are the signs of the alfacolypse. The horsemen of your destruction. You have no chance to survive make your time(ugh). You see me now for what I am. I am upon the pale horse and my name is death, ThinkTank the dark equestrian known as famine but he's a nice guy when you get to know him, Burt is war; a red cloaked rider on a military steed of such fearsome might it shakes the very ground where it treads, and zicada, the conquerer of nations. The destroyer of kings and who will bring the haughty leaders low, Oh! Don't forget Mord, the black psychlo who copies or some stuff. Beware us. Expect us.

MorbidKate · Post by **MorbidKate** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:39 pm

I think what many people are missing out on is "Community". If you want to create a sense of that you need to manage it to keep things running smoothly.

I've created "Fan" or "Hobbyist" forums for corporate clients who wish to have it appear that there's casual interest in their product or sport. In those situations some of the casual "members" are employees or PR hires but the methodologies used in managing an inviting forum community are the same. Enforcing civility.

Disagree all you want but do it in a civil manner. Slagging, cheap-shots, personal insults, ridicule and bullying are just not tolerated as it undermines the sense of community that's being nurtured. Protecting the community vibe trumps all and even long time, entrenched members filled with a sense of entitlement get the boot if they can no longer be civil.

And to me that sense of entitlement is a very real problem here. One glance at the small number of posters or IRC members who generate 90% of the day to day drama are long-time members who see ALFA as their social watering hole and not a gaming community site. They are entrenched due to their time here and many friendships and with the knowledge that their behaviour has been and is tolerated more than others. Certainly more than new members. That has created a sense of entitlement to say exactly what they want in any manner they want.

Moderation only works if it's impersonal, professional and even handed and already we've seen Mods make fools out of themselves which just undermines the entire effort. IF the Mods can start to act professionally and keep their alter-egos out of threads they post in then maybe members will start to feel a sense of community watch. IF that can be achieved THEN posting attitudes will start to change.

Bullying or any other behaviour that undermines the sense of community will start to slow once members buy in and TRUST that Mods will be even handed in enforcing civility. But they need to see it applied evenly or it'll have the opposite affect and cause unintended members to leave. Modding is a subtle art.

I've had countless Tells, IRC Chats, PMs and emails from ex-members who left in large part due to a lack of any sense of community in the forums and IRC so the concerns are very real. Enforcing civility or removing members, even entrenched ones who won't give up their sense of entitlement is needed. Question is, will their friends pull the trigger and do what's right for the community if they don't adapt?

Kate