Don't ask, Don't Tell, Don't keep this policy...

[JaydeMoon]

Mik, took my "tomorrow" statement a little out of context.

You're absolutely right, tomorrow doesn't come without trying to make a change 'today'. My point is that those changes are being made today, pushed for today, and that the walls are coming down.

Little by little, bigotry is removed, until it becomes a small problem, not a big one.

Time marches on, is my point. Every minority that has been held back has more rights today, more people fighting for them today, more people sympathetic to their plight today than there were yesterday.

And tomorrow there will be more. That's what I mean by 'tomorrow'.

MY preference? Equal rights across the board, because we're all PEOPLE, each worthy of the same amount of respect as the next person.

But that's me, and I know that it's not everyone. But through our efforts today, we bring more people closer to that line. Tomorrow might 'never come', but we should still strive to get there.

[HATEFACE]

Helios:

I foresee that Martin Luther Mikayla will be shot before she sees peace.
So hateful. . .

Nice personal attacks Helios. Its interesting how this subject is the one that sparks such emotion in you and gets you to post in the forums - you seem compelled to defend the right of homophobes to discriminate. I wonder why.

Anyway, on to your points:

Helios:

I would think that people are not just beaten senseless and then thrown out of the army because of their sexuality.

Well, yes, they are. When I was in, a certain Private's boyfriend showed up to the barracks 'outing' him. A week later, half a dozen guys wearing balaclava masks pushed their way into his room, beat him up, and hung him out a third floor window by his feet in the middle of winter (in Alaska). Those guys were never caught, but that Private was kicked out of the army for being gay. And that's just the guy I knew - there are lots of other stories too including infamous ones like Pvt. Barry Winchell getting beaten to death by his squad mates because he was dating a transgender woman.

Helios:

Hey Mikayla, would you be horriified if no one was allowed to serve openly irregardless of sexuality?

You mean if everyone was subject to a don't ask, don't tell policy? I think it would be a stupid waste of time and effort, but, it would be fair.

Helios:

You see its because of our ideology where we just want to be left alone without government giving more rights to minorities than we ourselves have. Which doesn't actually change our minds about your position but rather forces us to comply with the new status quo. Kinda like how you have to comply with ours now. So you see, there can be no peace without fair justice. Sometimes being called a racial slur hurts when you know it cannot be returned in kind. We're very sorry, Sincerely Republicans.

More rights? Heterosexual soldiers can serve "openly" in the Army; homosexual ones cannot. Heterosexual people can marry the ones they love and have the 1100 some odd benefits that exist under Federal law; homosexual people cannot. How are your rights being curtailed?

The only "right" of yours we are seeking to curtail is your "right" to keep us from being treated equally. No one is seeking to outlaw heterosexual marriage, or to keep heterosexual soldiers from serving 'openly' - this idea that we are infringing on your rights is bull-crap, pure and simple - the only "right" we are infringing on is your desire to discriminate against us because you think the bible tells you its ok to do treat us like we are less than human. Well, your religious beliefs should not define my secular rights - I (and every American, straight or queer) am entitled to the same life, liberty and justice as any "hateful-god-fearing-white-republican-straight-people-blah blah".

There saying 'hitting the nail on the head" in this case it's "hitting your construction partner in the face because you're cross-eyed."

You'll always wonder why because you are stupid. Secular Republicans always win over stupid. You'll never figure it out. All you'll do is guess and assume. It adds Drama and much needed lulz. Drama and lulz which you cling to just as much as I do. Peas in a pod we are.

So there wasn't a trial and they got away scot free and this was a personal experiance. Damn dude, I guess a few bad apples does spoil the bunch.

Its never a waste of time when equality is something to strive for.
We'll have to agree to disagree on how obtainable it is.

Why the hostility? My rights are not being curtailed thank you very much! I enjoy my freedoms!!! Hurrah America. I just don't want you to have more rights than I do. Equal is equal. You can have the same amount as me. Good luck in seeking it. As for the rest of your rants and lulz. LULZ. A winnar is you! I guess you don't deal with insanity well because well, its insane! So for your clarification, in the begining here, I defined myself as a secular republican. Not religious. Not an ounce. Your rant doesn't apply to me. but it might to Danubus had he been the one to goad you into it.

[HATEFACE]

Mik, took my "tomorrow" statement a little out of context.

You're absolutely right, tomorrow doesn't come without trying to make a change 'today'. My point is that those changes are being made today, pushed for today, and that the walls are coming down.

Little by little, bigotry is removed, until it becomes a small problem, not a big one.

Time marches on, is my point. Every minority that has been held back has more rights today, more people fighting for them today, more people sympathetic to their plight today than there were yesterday.

And tomorrow there will be more. That's what I mean by 'tomorrow'.

MY preference? Equal rights across the board, because we're all PEOPLE, each worthy of the same amount of respect as the next person.

But that's me, and I know that it's not everyone. But through our efforts today, we bring more people closer to that line. Tomorrow might 'never come', but we should still strive to get there.

Dude, Mikalya takes a lot out of context. I'm not too sure but I believe its her futile attempt at controlling both sides of the arguement. I could be wrong though, has that ever happaned to you? Being wrong? Happaned to me once or twice in my life.

[Mikayla]

So thats it Helios? No actual discussion or debate? Just dodge the issues and launch a volley of personal attacks? I should have expected as much, and I suppose part of me did. C'est la vie.

[HATEFACE]

So thats it Helios? No actual discussion or debate? Just dodge the issues and launch a volley of personal attacks? I should have expected as much, and I suppose part of me did. C'est la vie.

I didn't know you were seeking a discussion or debate arguement. Well I said my stuff, right? Equality in the military just a different way of going about it.

I'm not here to debate your issues. I'm here to speak about my own position, just like you do.

Now as for those personal attacks against you, I'm sorry if you take them so personally. I try not to. If I got riled by every asinine comment posted here, why, I'd go completely off my rocker. "But I don't want to go amoung mad people!" Alice said fearful of her surroundings. The Cat replied, "Oh you can't help that! We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." Much to the Cat's chagrin, mikayla spoke, "How do you know I'm mad?" The Cat responded to her query, "You must be. Or you wouldn't have come to this forum!"
Mikayla responded, "And how do you know that you're mad?"
The Helios tipped his hat and said, "To begin with, a dog's not mad. You grant that?" She agreed, "I suppose so." The Helios twisted his mustache and gave a wicked grin, "Well, then, you see, a dog growls when it's angry, and wags its tail when it's pleased. Now I growl when I'm pleased, and wag my tail when I'm angry. Therefore I'm mad."


You didn't expect as much even though part of you did. So did you expect this or didn't you. You seem like the dodgy one too me!
Je souhaite un poisson!

[psycho_leo]

So thats it Helios? No actual discussion or debate? Just dodge the issues and launch a volley of personal attacks? I should have expected as much, and I suppose part of me did. C'est la vie.

In his defense I must say that he flings personal attacks in so many directons you can't reasonably call them personal. PD spreads his hate equally.

[JaydeMoon]

[Mayhem]

Private Helios, welcome to basic.

Now some ground rules.

You have a wife? You may not visit her, in case somebody discovers that she exists. You may not keep a picture of her in your locker, same reason. You may not talk to her on the phone unless you are very careful not to be overheard, same reason. You may not talk about her - if anyone asks about your girlfriend, you must try to change the subject. When in the field, you may not receive regular care packages from her, in case somebody notices and realises she is more than a friend. If you are injured, she cannot visit you in a military hospital, in case somebody realises she is more than just a friend. You may not invite your unit mates to your home whilst on leave, in case they meet your wife. If serving on bases in the UK or Germany, she cannot come with you, even if married quarters are available on the base.

Thanks for volunteering to serve your country.

[HATEFACE]

Private Helios, welcome to basic.

Now some ground rules.

You have a wife? You may not visit her, in case somebody discovers that she exists. You may not keep a picture of her in your locker, same reason. You may not talk to her on the phone unless you are very careful not to be overheard, same reason. You may not talk about her - if anyone asks about your girlfriend, you must try to change the subject. When in the field, you may not receive regular care packages from her, in case somebody notices and realises she is more than a friend. If you are injured, she cannot visit you in a military hospital, in case somebody realises she is more than just a friend. You may not invite your unit mates to your home whilst on leave, in case they meet your wife. If serving on bases in the UK or Germany, she cannot come with you, even if married quarters are available on the base.

Thanks for volunteering to serve your country.

Private Mayhem, welcome to basic.

Now some ground rules.

You have a wife and/or life partner? You may not visit her or him, I am your family now. Your ass belongs to me! Is that understood private? You may not keep a picture of him or her in your locker. You will be given private phone privilages unless they are restricted due to disciplinary action. You may not talk about him or her. No one will ask about him or her. No one will care about him or her, except for you. When in the field, you may receive regular care packages from him or her. However, the contents of said package will follow military guidelines for appropriateness make sure you inform your family. If you are injured, you will not be allowed civilian visits in a military field hospital, unless you are moved to a civilian hospital. You may not invite your unit mates to your home whilst on leave. It is a damn good thing we have a president competent enough to keep our soldiers quartered in American bases in America, to defend Americans where they belong! For they have no purpose in other regions of the world. Looks like the world didn't go to hell in a handbasket! What purpose do we have keeping a military base in Japan? Too keep the Chinese off their ass?
"Sir, no sir!"
Fuck right, we're not! FALL IN LINE!

[JaydeMoon]

In response to Mayhem's comical exaggeration:

That's actually not how the policy works.

Suspicion of homosexuality is not enough for the military to do ANYTHING officially. That doesn't mean Private Backwater isn't going to take an entrenching tool upside your head (and hopefully rot in jail for it), but your commander is not going to put you out of the military because someone 'thinks' you're a homosexual.

Perspective: the only REAL difference between what is expected of homosexuals and heterosexuals in the military is that homosexuals cannot marry or attempt to marry in their preferred gender.

What goes on in the privacy of your own home is just that. Your commander is not going to snoop around your house to see if you're boffin' the missus, he's also not cruising around to see if you're boffin' your homosexual partner.

Simply receiving care packages, even care packages that go so far as to say, "I love you" in them does not add up to what they call "credible evidence of possible homosexual conduct".

The policy (and the training received by soldiers) says that the only 'credible evidence' is:

A statement by a reliable person that the soldier has engaged in a homosexual act, heard the soldier state that he or she was homosexual or that the soldier had married or attempted to marry a member of the same sex.

A statement by a reliable person that they had observed or discovered a soldier saying or putting in writing a statement acknowledging a homosexual act or the intent to engage in a homosexual act.

The training goes on to state that the following examples are expressly not to be considered 'credible evidence':

Rumors that a soldier is homosexual

Others opinions that a soldier is homosexual

Going to a homosexual bar, reading homosexual publications,

Associating with known homosexuals or marching in homosexual rights rally in civilian clothes

Reporting threats or accusations of being homosexual

ULTIMATELY, no one should be cruising around their work talking about the sexcapades, hetero- or homo-.

ULTIMATELY, what you do in the privacy of your own home is YOUR business. Military laws still carry harsh penalties for sodomy, which is defined as any sexual act not missionary position vaginal intercourse with your spouse 'if they find out you're doing it'. They aren't looking in your home to see if your doing oral with the hooker you just met down the street, and they're not looking in your home to see if your spooning with your same sex partner.

ULTIMATELY, simply STATING that you are a homosexual is usually not grounds to boot you out. In fact, commanders see such a statement as an 'excuse' to be removed from service (usually to avoid deployment to Iraq). A common jest in the Army is that it's not enough to go to your commander's office and tell him you're gay. You actually have to jump across the desk and stick your tongue in his mouth (assuming you are a male). You hear stories about the commander who says, "If you're gay, kiss me." Or more often, "If you're gay, bring someone in here and show me."

So, is it still a sticking point that an actual policy EXISTS that is targetted at homosexuals? Sure.

But do homosexuals really get treated any differently in the military? Barring the actual marriage thing? No. Cohabitation is not grounds. No one wants to know about your sex life, and your circle of friends that you might divulge that info to should be folks you know aren't going to blab in any case. Homos worry about discharge, heteros worry about sexual harassment charges that will amount to the same thing.

One place where I kind of agree with PD/Helios's statements is that the real life application of what is wanted feels like homosexuals want more than just to be left to their privacy, as is and should be their right, but that it often becomes a case of wanting to be able to wave it in everyone's face. Well, I don't want your sexuality waved in my face, hetero or homo. The don't ask don't tell policy could indeed be applied equally across the two and the only thing that would ACTUALLY change is heteros wouldn't be allowed to marry anymore.

Keep your sexcapades to yourself. Screwing ANYONE and being caught gets you in trouble.

As it does right now. Unless it's your wife. In your home. Missionary style. In the babymaker.

[Mikayla]

No one is seeking MORE than what the hetersexuals have; thats just ridiculous Jayde. Perhaps you "feel" that way - nothing I can do about that - but no credible LGBT organization I know has ever put forward any bill or proposed legislation that would give more power to homosexuals than heterosexuals. We just want equality.

Now, do individual homosexuals flaunt their homosexuality upon occasion - hell yes! Why? Because in so many places, at so many times, they are prohibited from being who they really are - so, when they get the chance to actually express their true selves, they go over board. And then there is the anger - no one likes being treated like a second class citizen, and it makes a lot of us mad, so, given the opportunity to flaunt their sexuality, some LGBT folks will take it.

Of course, straight people do this too - I cannot possibly count how many times the guys in my unit sat around the CP talking about pussy.

Anyway, if being queer didn't hold a stigma, or subject you to laws or discrimination that heterosexual people weren't subject to, people would not have to repress themselves so often in so many places, so the thrill of "revealing" ones self wouldn't be there and far fewer people (straight or queer) would feel the need to flaunt their sexuality (and when I include straight people in this, I mean all those folks who, whenever the subject of homosexuality comes up, have to establish to all around them that THEY are NOT homosexual).

[JaydeMoon]

Mikayla... jesus! Guys are SUPPOSED to sit around the CP and talk about pussy! It's their God given responsibility, and you queers better not even try to take that away!

Heh...

Seriously, as I said, it sometimes 'feels' that way, and it 'feels' that way because of the things you just said. Your explanation of the whys are spot on.

Me, personally, I'm not one to stand for guys in the CP talking about pussy. But those guys in there feel comfortable enough around each other to talk like that and take the risk that none of the other of them is going to raise a ruckus, then it still fits in my 'privacy' statement.

Just like if four homosexual soldiers were alone in the CP, they might feel comfortable to speak of things that are a bit risque.

In both cases, chances are if some brass walks in, both groups are going to sideline their conversation for a while (obviously there are exceptions to this, and in our current atmosphere, more exceptions for heteros talknig about pussy than homos talking about their homosexuality).

Also, my statements only speak to realistic application of whatever it is we're talking about in light of our current social atmosphere and based on my observations and feelings, yes?

I observe that homosexuals are more likely (in MY social circles) to 'show out' than heterosexuals.

Realistic application of the "Don't ask don't tell" policy does not appreciably restrict homosexuals from engaging in homosexual acts in their private lives. Marriage is one place, but with the current inability to marry at most state levels, that's academic. It would become a very real concern once such marriages were more commonplace.

Removal of such a policy would mostly serve as a social victory for homosexuals, and while responsible members of society will graciously accept this victory in the moral and ethical sense, I find it reasonable to believe that you will see a dramatic increase in provocative homosexual behavior within the armed forces.

Regardless of the whys and hows, reasonable response to the release of restrictions, what have you, and removing any judgement from that situation (because, hell, I understand!), it's simply a fact.

How long that will go on for, who can say. But believe you me, there will be repercussions, as that percentage of the armed forces that will refuse to accept such a thing 'show out' their negative behavior.

A perfect scenario, with a transparent crossover from the policy to a removal of any restrictions, should result in an environment much the same way it is now:

I don't KNOW your sexual preference. You do whatever it is you do in the privacy of your own home. You watch what you say at work for fear of just reprisal (whether fear of discharge or of being slapped with a sexual harassment suit down official channels). And we all interact professionally to accomplish the mission.

But if it's going to be the same then as it is now, with the only difference being a removal of the policy for the sake of principle, then we should examine if the potential repercussions are worth that principle.

It may be painfully obvious that it is worth it to the homosexual community, but is it worth it to commanders across the forces?

Barry Winchell was killed in a time when a VAST majority of homosexuals in the military are not open about their sexual preference. How many times might that repeat itself if suddenly every homosexual felt the urge to declare themselves openly and flaunt their sexuality in response to a removal of repression and a major political/societal victory?

Maybe none times. Maybe 10 times. 1 time is too many.

[HATEFACE]

I don't know why anyone would be talking about their sexuality in the army. Don't they have something better to do like killing or training? Seriously, those army guys are the most politically incorrect group of fellows around. Always talking about pussy and ass sex.

[Mikayla]

Jayde:

Barry Winchell was killed in a time when a VAST majority of homosexuals in the military are not open about their sexual preference. How many times might that repeat itself if suddenly every homosexual felt the urge to declare themselves openly and flaunt their sexuality in response to a removal of repression and a major political/societal victory?

Maybe none times. Maybe 10 times. 1 time is too many.

So we should just accept our place as second class citizens to "protect" ourselves from the wrath of homophobic straight people? Thanks but no thanks. Unless and until someone (us) pushes the social wheel towards progress, those homophobic straight people are never going to change their behavior, and the Barry Winchell's of the world will go on getting killed (by the way, Barry was not gay - he was dating a woman, she just happened to be transgender). The only hope for changing the way other people to think is to stand up for ourselves and not accept the shame that others want to heap on us.

[HATEFACE]

Jayde:

Barry Winchell was killed in a time when a VAST majority of homosexuals in the military are not open about their sexual preference. How many times might that repeat itself if suddenly every homosexual felt the urge to declare themselves openly and flaunt their sexuality in response to a removal of repression and a major political/societal victory?

Maybe none times. Maybe 10 times. 1 time is too many.

So we should just accept our place as second class citizens to "protect" ourselves from the wrath of homophobic straight people? Thanks but no thanks. Unless and until someone (us) pushes the social wheel towards progress, those homophobic straight people are never going to change their behavior, and the Barry Winchell's of the world will go on getting killed (by the way, Barry was not gay - he was dating a woman, she just happened to be transgender). The only hope for changing the way other people to think is to stand up for ourselves and not accept the shame that others want to heap on us.

I don't plan on changing my ideology of sexuality or political party any time soon. Does that make me a homophobe? I would hope not. Sure I've said some hurtful things to you but I would hope that you would reason that it wasn't because your transgender. Its because of your flameable liquid interior and crunchy bait ridden exterior, yummy.

You know, you don't have anything to prove to us on this NWN1 forum. We know your transgender. You mention it every other NWN1 forum topic.
I like Zakharra when she speaks to me. For some reason I can actually stand listening to her. I know its suprising, considering all you lib nutsacks hate for her political stance. But whatever. I know she's transgender too. But unlike you she's pretty infrequent in her rants and I would be more willing to listen to what she has to say about it than you. I wish I could explain it better. She's cool and you just suck. Its great that you're politically motivated and all that, but it doesn't hurt to tone it down a tad. ("OMG I AM THE MAN STIFFLIN UR SEXUALITYS!")



So he wasn't gay but he was dating a woman who changed into a man Or was he gay because he was dating a man who changed into a woman?
You know what? Nevermind. It's late.