PSA and Bet

[NickD]

You state a lack of positive role models in the black community. Two of our greatest leaders, Martin Luther King Jr and Malcolm X were excellent role models. And at least King was one of the world's greatest leaders, and I'd even go so far as to say Malcolm X was as well based on his post-Mecca teachings. But what happened to both of the most prominent and polarizing leaders of the Civil Rights Movement? They were both assassinated.

While leaders are certainly role models, they are definitely not the only kind of role models you can have. While it may be largely self perpetuating, having solo parents, a much higher than average crime rate (or at least prison population) and unemployment rate are all causes of negative role models. While black people may have a lot more to overcome to become a good role model, it's something the majority of the population needs to do to pull themselves out of poverty and show others that it is not impossible for them to achieve if only they apply themselves to the task. I don't see the American black community overcoming their situation through one or two charismatic leaders, but instead through everyone doing what needs to be done, and to stop perpetuating their situation by following the easy path (gangs, violence, etc.), to gain an equal footing with the white people.

And while the focus of this is largely on the black community, it is also a problem in lower socio economic white communities as well.



I didn't mean that to sound like I think all black people are poor unemployed criminals. I am well aware there are plenty of black people that do well in society.

[Rotku]

Quit bitching a whining about what we are own... and start getting off our asses and take what we want...

All this sh*t about being represed gets old. All of us one way or another has had to overcome obstacles in our lives and get over that hump... Get off your lazy asses and do something about it.

Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win.
WORKING MEN OF ALL COUNTRIES, UNITE!

And there I always thought you were a good right winged American, Danubus.

[Inaubryn]

You state a lack of positive role models in the black community. Two of our greatest leaders, Martin Luther King Jr and Malcolm X were excellent role models. And at least King was one of the world's greatest leaders, and I'd even go so far as to say Malcolm X was as well based on his post-Mecca teachings. But what happened to both of the most prominent and polarizing leaders of the Civil Rights Movement? They were both assassinated.

While leaders are certainly role models, they are definitely not the only kind of role models you can have. While it may be largely self perpetuating, having solo parents, a much higher than average crime rate (or at least prison population) and unemployment rate are all causes of negative role models. While black people may have a lot more to overcome to become a good role model, it's something the majority of the population needs to do to pull themselves out of poverty and show others that it is not impossible for them to achieve if only they apply themselves to the task. I don't see the American black community overcoming their situation through one or two charismatic leaders, but instead through everyone doing what needs to be done, and to stop perpetuating their situation by following the easy path (gangs, violence, etc.), to gain an equal footing with the white people.

And while the focus of this is largely on the black community, it is also a problem in lower socio economic white communities as well.



I didn't mean that to sound like I think all black people are poor unemployed criminals. I am well aware there are plenty of black people that do well in society.

Nick, I was citing MLK and Malcolm X as examples of good role models, not saying since they were leaders they were role models. These men were family men, they were good husbands and fathers. They were productive members of their communities and society at-large. These men were quintessential role models for blacks. And my point was that somebody took that away when they killed them.

[Inaubryn]

No Ina, its pretty "black and white"

People will get what they put into their lives. You might have some pre-determined obstacles, but you can overcome them.

You just dont wanna hear what anyone tells you. Maybe thats a big part of the problem.

Dan, you're post reminds me of somebody standing there yelling at a homeless person to "get a job!" Because it's that simple right?

You only scratch the surface with your posts. If you go back and read my post, you will see that I said, in short, America provides opportunity for everybody. But, you go on this "rant" as you put it about, don't bash your own race with some lingo, don't have a bunch of kids you can't afford, get off welfare, get off the drugs, quit bitchin' and whinin' what you're owed, go to college, do this and do that. But my question to you is, if it's really that simple how come everybody in this country hasn't done it or doesn't do it? How come society isn't perfect? After all, if it's so simple there shouldn't be anything standing in the way of doing it.

Most of the arguments you made in your post are the arguments a lot of whites use in reference to Blacks and Hispanics. As I said before, it's easy to tell somebody what to do, when you have no idea what their circumstances are, were, or may become. There is a pervasive mindset that has been entrenched, ingrained and impressed into certain groups of people even prior to all the social issues you cited, truly existed. The answer is not simply telling people what to do. Because, that doesn't do any good if you can't change how people think. You have to change the mindset to change the behavior. Simply standing on the side of the road shouting at the homeless guy, "Hey, get a job!" when he may be in need of something else is like trying to catch fish by sitting in your boat and screaming at the fish to jump in. It's useless.

Easier said than done, is the cliche I believe. Why don't you be proactive and go into the water and start pulling fish out and putting them into the boat. Seriously, if all the people who stood up and said, get off welfare, don't commit crime, say no to drugs, don't be poor, actually did something to change what they're yelling about instead of just yelling, then just maybe, you'd see society begin to mirror that which you so vehemently support.


P.S. Don't take this post as angry or as an attack or anything. It's just discourse as far as I'm concerned.

[Lusipher]

I dont have to change. I did what I had to do through hard work. Got my degree and got a good job cause I busted my ass. Its not easy to do you gotta stop asking for handouts and do it.

Im all for volunteering to help someone out. I just am in no way going to help out someone whos so use to living the way they are or have the mindset they have. They have to be the one to change not me. Its simple. You have a hard time understanding. I know minorities have challenges. So what? Get over it and get to work. Instead of telling me to change your mindset do it your self. Get your own people to change their minds. As far as I can see most African Americans are too caught up in being all hip hop and want to make the easiest cash they can by selling drugs. I know a lot of african american men and women who had to get themselves out of that gutter, get themselves out of that mindset, and then work their butts off to make what they have now. They did it, though. Some from some very poor familes and abusive homes. They did it because they wanted to do it.

If African Americans want to change their lots in life or any minority for that matter then do something about it in your own communties. Im sorry, but Bill Cosby has it right.

Anyway, you either get it or you dont. Im done posting in this thread.

[Inaubryn]

Dan, I informed you that I in no way was takin' anything you said personally, but then you turn back around and write what you wrote. To say that most African Americans are too caught up in bein' "Hip-Hop and wanting to make the easiest cash they can by selling drugs" is probably one of the biggest, blatantly racist, ignorant slaps in the face I've ever seen on these boards. To categorize and minimize the majority of Blacks is not only ignorant but just bad form. And to think it was you who ranted and raved and made a case to do away with the off-topic forum predicated on the very sort of thing you just wrote. Perhaps you should find a moderator and ask them to moderate you.

I was never askin' you personally to change anything. A.) I know you can't change anything. B.) I know you don't know how. C.) I know you would never care enough about anybody other than yourself, and maybe a select few friends and family, to try. That's actually a lot of what's wrong with people today, but that's another topic entirely. I was merely explaining to you, speaking of not getting it, what needs to be done in order to turn some things around. I was explaining that the mindset must change and that it doesn't do any good to sit their and run on at the mouth simply tellin' somebody what to do. Any human being knows that the majority of the time you can't just tell people what to do. You have to make them understand how to do it and what the benefit and or detriment is for doing or not doing it. You mention frequently that your a supervisor at your job, so I would hope that you know this.

You also stated, "as far as I can see...," which evidently isn't too far. A bit nearsighted are we? For your information, "most African Americans" as you put it, are hard working, well-meaning, productive members of society that do not ask for hand outs nor do they expect any to be given. Most of which started with the odds stacked against them and still persevered. Are they the richest people in the world? No. But they put in their due diligence just like you and other Americans. To belittle what these people, myself included, do and have done, speaks to your character as a person. Now, maybe you didn't mean most. The only thing that would lead me to believe that is what you typed after that. But the fact remains, you did type it, so I'm takin' it at face value.

So, what you got a degree? Congratulations. Tens of thousands of Americans get their degrees every year, many of them black. And many of them are out of work or can't find decent work despite their degree. My sister just got her Masters this year and she's doing her part in attempting to change mindsets as she's a teacher. And, I personally am workin' on my Bachelor's at the moment. So, you say you know a lot of blacks, but I highly doubt that. Grow uo with any? And I mean in their households. Got any black relatives you get together with for holidays and such? Maybe you work with blacks and you say hi to them in the hall or share a laugh at the water cooler, and maybe you even go to lunch or happy hour with Roderick from accounting, but you don't know any blacks. I've got white friends that have known me most of my life that'll tell you in a heartbeat they have not the faintest idea of what it's is to be black. So, you obviously have no inkling as to what it means to be black in this country and how much harder you have to work to do things. Do some people use that as an excuse still, yep. But very few do. Trust me, I know black people. You say as far as you can see. That means you are speculating, in other words you have no real clue. All you know is what you see on Tv and in the movies.

And you keep talkin' about how you're Native American as if that gives you some sorta connection to blacks in a racially opressed sort of way. The whites killed the American Indian and stuck them on reservations.. that's oversimplified but it was horrible what they did. But, vastly more blacks died during the 250+ years of slavery and the following 150 years than they did Indians anywhere ever. We were opressed and hated longer and with a fervor the likes the American Indian never saw. So, in regards to your indian heritage, that's cool and all and I mean that sincerely. But, you can't relate at all and I'm pretty sure most people see you as white regardless of if they know your heritage or not.

Now, I don't have anything against anybody here in ALFA and I don't have anything against you. You want to make racially insensitive comments out of ignorance, be my guest. You want to overtly express racism, go right ahead. You want to attack the majority of a group of people with a blatant unknowledgeable lie. That's your problem not mine and I'm not gonna hold it against you. I was just looking to educate you and from your comments you obviously have no clue. Now, the thing is we could've simply discussed this in an intelligent manner and you could have asked me why I say what I say, and why I believe what I believe and I would've been more than happy to tell you. But, instead you decide the best way to go about this is to let us all know what you think of all these damn hippity-hop, drug sellin' niggers.

[Lusipher]

Dude, what images are most black youth seeing and trying to emulate right now in popular culture? Hip hop/gangsta nonsense. Thats all I was saying. Even a lot of white kids are trying to emulate them. Its just stupid because the majority of hip hop artists are promoting drugs, demeaning women, and firearms. You know it as well as I do. Dont get pissed off when all I did was bring up a fact.

Once again, a black person gets all defensive when you dont agree with their views. We should all just give you repreations right now and let you pick whatever job you want? Come on.

Im not racist, bud. I have endured enough myself. I just think you think your special, but I think people need to pick themselves up from their bootstraps and do things for themselves and not try and get others to do it for them.

As for living with blacks and having black friends etc. No, I dont. Most of the black folks Ive ever encountered were really cool growing up but when you got a few blacks together then they started talking shit about the white kid or the indian kid. Its amazing how that happens isnt it?

Anyway, I said I was done. Your all pent up and nothing anyone says is going to change your mind or mine for that matter. Dont talk shit and call me a racist when we have to listen to you rant and rave about how blacks are so bad off and how they endure so much etc. It gets old hearing you whine about it in chat and on the forums. If you want things to change do something to make it change. Help inform your community. Help mentor a kid. Do something positive and quit saying its everyone elses fault for your problems.

Im done.

[Inaubryn]

I'm by no means pissed. You keep sayin' "most'. Dan, you don't know most black people. There are 36 million of us in this country. Have you met most? Do you have statistical data on most? Then how is it a fact that most blacks are tryin' to emulate somethin'? The majority (most) of black youths that I know are not tryin' to emulate whatever it is. Our culture has its good and its bad just like any other culture. What you see on televisioin and in film comes from the streets, our neighborhoods, our lives. That's where it starts. But, most black youths are not buyin' into the bad part of it of our culture. Some are, certainly. But, they're in the minority. So, all I'm sayin' is it's okay to speak on a topic, but if your gonna try and state somethin' is a fact, make sure of it. And, you'll be hard pressed to pass half-baked opinion on this topic off as fact to me.

What I think you did was misunderstand me. I think you thought I was askin' you for help with the problems that persist in the black community or on a more general level, that blacks should ask whites for help. Let me tell you somethin' that we know as evident truth, ain't nobody white tryin' to help us out. We know and understand we have to do it ourselves. I think you misconstrued my "help" metaphor. The call has always been for us to do it ourselves. "We Shall Overcome" was not "We Shall Overcome if Whites Help us" or "We Shall Overcome as Soon as Whites Let Us". We were talkin' our actions bringing our salvation. When blacks were being beaten, lynched, killed by police, we weren't screamin' for our attackers or those who stood by to help us. As crass as you are about it, you're right about one thing, if it's gonna change we gotta do it ourselves. But, I've never denied that as a matter of fact I acknowledged that verything in one of my post in this thread somewhere. And Bill Cosby absolutely was right. But, if you're goin' to complain be ready to do somethin' about it, otherwise sit back and enjoy the fruits of your own labor and don't worry about nobody else.

I'd like to see you point out one time that I said it's somebody else's fault for our problem. And I don't care if you disagree with me. If you would actually read and understand what I type, you'd see where I said we're in agreement several times. But, you don't read and/or understand. And, Dan, I'm sorry, but what you said about "most African Americans" can't be construed any other way other than racist. Again, I'm not pissed nor am I gettin' defensive and would be more than glad to continue the discussion. But you got all offended by Mulu in the relgion thread and ranted about havin' this forum shut down and that thread moderated because Mulu bashed oh so precious Christianity. But, here you are essentially doin' the same thing here. Irony? Hypocrisy? Either way, I'm not mad and for the eighth or ninth time, I agree with you, you're just not very informed on the subject at hand. So, most of what you're sayin' is sheer conjecture and opinion. I'm open to sharin' facts with you as well as my opinions.

Again, you've never seen me say, nor will you see me say that it is someone else's fault for our predicament. Were there outside influences (re: white) that have led to this point? Hell, yes. But now it's up to us to take the reigns and roll. Again, I don't expect you to understand. You never will and that's cool. If you wanna continue the convo, I'm here.

[Mulu]

Having studied our criminal justice system in depth, I can add that even today blacks are guilty until proven innocent. A black male in the US has a 40% chance of being incarcerated in his lifetime, IIRC. Once incarcerated, many of the opportunities that America provides become unavailable, as you are now a person with a criminal history, so no credit, limited job opportunities, etc.

That's of course just one very small element in the overall picture. Drug abuse and family disintegration are perpetual and residual from past racism. Of course, racism is still quite endemic here, a fact I've always known but learned much clearer when I had a black girlfriend. The stares I got were enough to chill me on the idea of developing the relationship, despite the fact that she was hot and funny and a lot of what I look for in a woman. I was living in the Central Valley at the time (read Republican and Christian stronghold of California), and it just wasn't worth it. I half expected to see my tires slashed everytime we left a restaurant. It was ridiculous.

As far as racism in New Zealand, I seem to recall seeing a movie called "Once Were Warriors." The Maori referred to themselves as "black," which I found interesting, apparently empathizing with the plight of African Americans.

[Inaubryn]

Once again, a black person gets all defensive when you dont agree with their views. We should all just give you repreations right now and let you pick whatever job you want? Come on.

Im not racist, bud. I have endured enough myself. I just think you think your special, but I think people need to pick themselves up from their bootstraps and do things for themselves and not try and get others to do it for them.

Anyway, I said I was done. Your all pent up and nothing anyone says is going to change your mind or mine for that matter. Dont talk sh*t and call me a racist when we have to listen to you rant and rave about how blacks are so bad off and how they endure so much etc. It gets old hearing you whine about it in chat and on the forums. If you want things to change do something to make it change. Help inform your community. Help mentor a kid. Do something positive and quit saying its everyone elses fault for your problems.

Im done.

First of all, I don't and never have whined about any of this. Anything you've heard me say in chat on this matter has been in response to questions. People ask me stuff and I give them an answer. If you call that whinin' so be it. Second of all, you have no idea what I'm doin' to change the situation we're discussin', but I like your ideas even if they are small scale. More people should do that and not just blacks. There are many kids of many races in need of mentoring. The world could be a better place period.

And again, Dan, you just don't read. One of the very first things I said to you was that I agree with you in principle. I've gone on to say I agree with you over and over again. But, you refuse to acknowledge that and for some reason you continue to argue about somethin' that we're in agreement on. Huh? You're the one who's gotten up in arms about all of this. All I want you to do is A.) recognize that we agree... in principle B.) Get your facts together before attempting to present an argument in which you're not very knowledgeable on and can only speculate about. C.) Don't run off and do the same thing that you got pissed at Mulu about on another topic.

[Lusipher]

nah, Im sorry if I seem to have gotten heated, but I just hate the whole issue. It has nothing to do with one race or another. Its the way we treat each other and how it affects us now and our kids in the future.

[Inaubryn]

Having studied our criminal justice system in depth, I can add that even today blacks are guilty until proven innocent. A black male in the US has a 40% chance of being incarcerated in his lifetime, IIRC. Once incarcerated, many of the opportunities that America provides become unavailable, as you are now a person with a criminal history, so no credit, limited job opportunities, etc.

That's of course just one very small element in the overall picture. Drug abuse and family disintegration are perpetual and residual from past racism. Of course, racism is still quite endemic here, a fact I've always known but learned much clearer when I had a black girlfriend. The stares I got were enough to chill me on the idea of developing the relationship, despite the fact that she was hot and funny and a lot of what I look for in a woman. I was living in the Central Valley at the time (read Republican and Christian stronghold of California), and it just wasn't worth it. I half expected to see my tires slashed everytime we left a restaurant. It was ridiculous.

33%, 1/3rd of the 17 million black men in the United States are either in prison, on parole, or on probation.

When I was a kid (high school) I got into a fight with another kid at school. Unfortunately, I won the fight. One punch fight mind you. Well, he swung and missed. I was soon arrested and charged with Felony Injury to a Child. He was a 9th grader and 15, I was a junior and 17. I received 5 years felony deferred adjudication probation as punishment for my "crime". Was this fair? Could I have avoided the fight? Yep. And had I done just that, I wouldn't have ever worried about it. The fact is, kids fight. Many of us have been in a fight or two as kids. Mine ended in a felony.

A few years later I failed to report to my Probation Officer twice in a row. I had just changed officers. My probation was revoked and I was sentenced to 10 years in prison. I did six months in prison and my sentence was then commuted to 10 years probation.

Now, it was a condition of my probation to report as ordered. I didn't do that and they had every right to revoke my probation. But, in this case, let's weigh the crime against the punishment. A high school fight and ten years in prison. No one seemed to find that out of sorts. But that sort of thing happens. When I was in prison I heard a news story where a 11 year old got into a fight with a 10 year old. The 11 year old was charged with the same exact crime that I was. Both kids were black and this was a ridiculous charge.

What if I was white? Would I have been charge with a felony, or a lesser charge such as assault? Who knows?

[Mulu]

That's ridiculous. And as I'm sure you're well aware, the collateral consequences of a conviction are numerous and can include ineligibility for federal student loans, ineligibility to work in the public sector, voting disenfranchisment, ineligibility to adopt, in some cases ineligibility to get a driver's license, ineligibility to be part of a licensed profession like psychologist, etc. I used to have a lecture on the topic, and the list of effects numbered over one hundred, many of which are dictated by statute but some of which are simply societal effects.

I used to start my criminology class with the statement that "everyone here is a criminal." After getting some eye rolls, I'd say, "how many of you have possessed or used drugs? That's a crime, you know. How about reckless driving, or driving under the influence? Those can both be felonies. Sex with a minor, even when you were a minor. 17 is a felony. Ever been in a fight? Assault and battery. Ever downloaded or dubbed copyrighted material? Now, how many of you can honestly say you've never committed a crime?" Of course, no one ever raised their hands.

Conservatives like to say that only criminals get punished for committing crime, but the fact is we're all guilty, yet only some of us get punished. That discretion in report, arrest and prosecution makes all the difference in the world, and it's definitely racist. I'm glad I'm white.

[Inaubryn]

I forgot to add, that I was never convicted. I was placed on 10 years of deferred adjudication probation after my 6 month stint in TDC. I "successfully" completed the probationary period in March of last year. So, no conviction even though that particular part of my past can be obtained by a simple background check. So, the stigma is still there to some degree.

[NickD]

As far as racism in New Zealand, I seem to recall seeing a movie called "Once Were Warriors." The Maori referred to themselves as "black," which I found interesting, apparently empathizing with the plight of African Americans.

I wouldn't say that... It's probably more that there aren't really very many black people in New Zealand (I didn't see a black person outside of the TV until I was 18, when a bunch of people from Africa were in Auckland for some kind of summit), so they are black by default of being the darkest race, I guess. The maori and polynesians here do emulate some aspects of black American culture, particularily in the way they dress, with a lot of basketball clothing, even though basketball isn't very popular here. We even got our own bloods and crips after the movie Colors came out, but they were always just kids going around and demanding you give them your shoes, and they were largely samoan and tongan rather than maori.

I have heard the maori people have good relations with the native americans because they did go through very similar circumstances (having all their land taken and/or swindled from them, almost getting wiped out, etc), but I really don't think the maori and african americans have really had that much in the way of similar experiences, apart from the usual that comes from being a minority.

Anyway, Once Were Warriors was more about domestic abuse than racism. And the movie was significantly better than the book it was based on. The book was way melodramatic.