Half of nation outraged by new Michael Moore film

[mxlm]

Are you a climatologist?

In the first place, saying 'we can't reverse it' is beyond the bounds of climatology. It involves, among other things, economics, sociology, anthropology, physics, engineering, biology, and history.

In the second place: no, but I pay attention to them. You, apparently, do not. The preponderance of climatologists do not share anything approaching the view you articulated. Nor does the data support the view you articulated.

So I can reasonably conclude that you don't know what you're talking about. I am, however, willing to be persuaded otherwise; fire away.

[ç i p h é r]

Let me first clarify your remarks about reversing global warming. I was commenting on the expressed desire to STOP global warming, which implies that we [will] have the ability to somehow control or regulate the temperature of the planet. While I don't contend that we contribute to the phenomenon in some way, I believe that nature is still running its course here, though apparently at an accelerated rate (whatever the reason - we can disagree on the why but it's ultimately irrelevant to the outcome).

Why do I believe this? In a nutshell:

On the scientific front, the articles I have read and the interviews I have listened to explain that the planet in fact has a climate cycle. The earth has been heating up and cooling down for millions of years. This is documented in the planet's fossil records which predate our existence. The outcome of the last cooling cycle was an ice age that occurred some 14,000 years ago, and obviously the planet emerged from that without the assistance of mankind. So clearly even were we to leave no imprint on the climate at all, something still will and the process will continue.

On the empirical front, the notion of a climate cycle (and upcoming cool down) seems to be corroborated by the ice age predictions by scientists in the 70's, the more recent inexplicable massive heat dissipation detected by NOAA buoys in the waters of the pacific earlier in the year, and Hollywood's dramatizations in recent movies like a Day After Tomorrow (fun movie BTW).

Considering that we have a pretty poor track record of predicting weather in the relatively short term and we are absolutely dismal at it over the long term, I can conclude with absolute certainty that stopping a process we understand so poorly is an impossibility.

[ayergo]

What if you don't know what you're talking about?

On a purely scientific standpoint, i don't really think those graphs are the best.

Both graphs have different Y axis on the left and right side of the graph, which is kinda misleading. Its especially noticeable on the second graph.

Also the first graph compares the ~number~ of sunspots, not so much intesity, or some other more quantifiable effect such as BTUs or something more useful.

In short, you need to find better graphs dude. If you ever see a graph with different axis in different places, it sucks.

[ç i p h é r]

Maybe we need to wear 3D glasses?

[mxlm]

5D glasses, actually. Get it right, noobzor.

Ayergo: you're quite right, but the graph was built with the layman in mind, and I make allowances for that.

I could go find some 'scientific' graphs, if you'd prefer.

On the empirical front, the notion of a climate cycle (and upcoming cool down) seems to be corroborated by the ice age predictions by scientists in the 70's

The ice age predictions were not, in fact, predictions; they were distorted to the point they were unrecognizable by the press at the time.

Trust me, I just had this argument with someone else, and browsed through JSTOR to see if I could find any support for the idea that there was some sort of scientific consensus on global cooling in the '70s. There wasn't. The (few) articles that were published were of the 'I wonder if...this question needs more research' nature. They were quickly followed by other stating that 'uh, there's no scientific basis for this popular notion that's being floated around. Goddamn noob press people'.

[NickD]

So we can stop global warming? What if it's also the sun's temperature increasing? That we can't stop. Can we alter the weather too? How do we do it?

Space tugboats!

Turn the Sun off instead of letting it burn all night?

Only if you do it during the New Zealand night time! Most of Europe will be eternally dark, and the east coast of America will only see a couple of hours of light during the winter, but think of the energy savings!

[NickD]

On the scientific front, the articles I have read and the interviews I have listened to explain that the planet in fact has a climate cycle. The earth has been heating up and cooling down for millions of years. This is documented in the planet's fossil records which predate our existence.

I also suspect that it is inevitable. Hence my death analogy. However, as in my death analogy, we can allow the planet to change climates at its own pace, taking maybe a million years to reach that point, or we can choke up the atmosphere with smoke and decimate the trees, the lungs of the planet and destroying the quality of life of all life on the planet and bringing about changes in a couple of hundred years.

Like a man dying old and healthy of natural causes in his 90s compared to a man dying a slow and painful death full of medical complications with the lung cancer killing him off in his 40s because he refused to quit smoking. His grandmother lived to a rip old age of 80 and she smoked every day of her life, so obviously people are exaggerating the dangers of smoking..........

The outcome of the last cooling cycle was an ice age that occurred some 14,000 years ago, and obviously the planet emerged from that without the assistance of mankind. So clearly even were we to leave no imprint on the climate at all, something still will and the process will continue.

From what I've read, this does cycle. However, once an ice age hits, it is very difficult to break out of it as it tends to be self-perptuating. And we've been in an ice age for about 40 million years now.

[Cassiel]

Maybe he is a real champion of the people or maybe that's just a facade to build credibility/make headlines. Maybe he's trying to make money so he can help more people or maybe he's doing it so he can make lots of money for himself.

Does it make a difference? In all seriousness - if Moore's giving someone who has devoted a large part of their life to bringing him down $10,000 to help his wife, what do his motives matter, even if your assumption that he gave the money to make headlines is correct?

I believe it is still a fundamentally good act, and one which wouldn't even be considered by folk whose business is genuinely just to make money.

In terms of making lots of money for himself, he's been quite plain about that being one of his goals, and in the setting he grew up in (Flint, MI), that's a positive thing- it allows people to believe they too can get the hell out of the shithole existence they find themselves in. So even if he is "just in it for the money", that's not as black-and-white bad as you make out.

Who can say, but there is no denying that he is making these films to make money.

Sure - but not just to make money. Given that you acknowledge that the US healthcare system is a disaster, why criticise a film which will - really, really will - bring attention to that fact? Why not go criticise the makers of Spiderman 3, which is apparently quite shite and really is just to make money?

Nevertheless, I'd consider his work if he was objective and sincerely interested in discovering the truth. Barring such, I think it's just propaganda.

Propaganda for what? "Look how shit our healthcare system is"? What's his cause here?

To me, Cipher, it looks like you're doing that classic, knee-jerk American thing of taking political sides over something you know nothing about - indeed, can know nothing about given that it's yet to be released. In a thread which I started with a post designed to satirise exactly that reaction, that's acutely ironic.

[dergon darkhelm]

[paazin]

can you make that graph any bigger?

[ç i p h é r]

Cassiel:

Do the methods make a difference? In the case of his "documentaries", I certainly think so. He makes money by selling half truths and by pushing political hot buttons. I've watched enough of Fahrenheit 911 to understand his methods and I personally don't approve of them. Yes, he helps some people and that's good, but he also leads a lot of other people to believe in something that isn't entirely truthful and polarizes the nation in the process. That isn't good. In fact, it's unethical.

The FEWER Michael Moore's we have the better off I believe we would be. The biggest problem in America today is that our government is so divided it no longer works. And the polls reflect that. Approval ratings of Congress are lower than even that of the President. Just 23% of America approves.

Why criticize the movie? I didn't. All I said was that if he was objective and truly interested in the truth (which is what true documentaries strive to do), I'd watch it but I know that he isn't based on his prior work. I think that's probably the nature of the criticism it's getting prerelease. The simple fact is, we don't need Michael Moore to draw attention to the problem because everyone already knows the current system is dysfunctional. We all pay the darn bills my friend. What we need is a solution, not for filmmakers to exploit the situation.

Given how ineffectual our government has been, I don't think a solution is truly possible in the near term. The political climate needs to change, the polarization of the nation needs to stop, and Americans need to be willing to work together once again if we're going to successfully deal with issues of such magnitude.

[PensivesWetness]

Millia talks to God(z) (24Jun07 1406 PM Local)

It was a wonderful day in Faerun, Michagin. People were being born, dying, being born then dying, or being Born, then dying, then turning into Liches... or Chatholics. (s)He was about to go take a dump when he felt a kicking impact on his left toe. At first, he thought the mpact might have been a '05 Chevy Impala... but no... It was a Little halfling with pink hair, looking up at his with deep green eyes...

'Yes, my child?' The voice of all power spoke with great grace.

The brave little halfling waved her hand in gesture as she spoke, surprising strength in her tone. "Me understands why you does death thingie. Me understand thunder thingie [h] You is Talos Groupie. [com] But me really gets this warm-Fart-Air-Water-Flood stuff you does. No?"

He smiles warmly down upon the clearly brain rattled halfling (probably a Gemini born Hin) and gave a simple reply. 'Its not my call, toots. The wife sometimes plays with the Laptop.'

Several blinks takes pauce before Millia thinks of anything to say to the God(z). "So... that why you is bald? No?"

The great deity didn't even blink to that one. 'Thigh Burns, child. Sharess is a she-devil in the sack"

What? you exspect me to post something normal? Worry about when we run outta gas, how sh*t fudged the world will degree socially then. Don't need a cataclism for that. just add humanty with a few beer cans to the stew...

[Mulu]

So we can stop global warming? What if it's also the sun's temperature increasing? That we can't stop. Can we alter the weather too? How do we do it?

All of that will put the planet's temperature back where it's supposed to be? Isn't the climate constantly changing? Getting warmer and colder at times?

The fact that we have greatly accelerated global warming shows that we can control the planet's climate, at least in broad strokes. Fine tuned control is likely beyond us at the present. But if we can do it by accident then we can surely do it by design. Climate control is a necessary concomitant to long term inhabitability. Left to its own devices, nature will wipe us out eventually. This planet has gone from the extremes of a molten surface to a completely frozen surface. It's best to take over the thermostat ourselves, wisely and with long term goals of sustainability.

[PensivesWetness]

Mulu dear. Nothing is gonna happen. Unless you can cause the quick slaughter of oh... 70% of the world's population in retards...

That includes you and me, since we both drive cars, too.

seriously. I've read plenty of manga that typically predicts dire futures for humanity. When i drive around and see all the reasons we drive around, see all the waste we do to the world (Fudge! what we could do if people would recycle, at least make the effort.)...

It aint gonna happen. you gotta kill a zoints lots of people since, collectively, they won't give you a lick of spit, if it 'Incovieniances them' IN ANY WAY.

YEAAAAAA, Green! What? you mean i have get off my ass, pick up that trash/put plastics in plastics? f*ck that!

*sigh*

[ayergo]

mxlm, you should find better graphs i think.

In my opinion, bad science will never be defeated by more bad science. Or in other words "If you make a graph so that even an idiot could read it, then only an idiot will want to read it."