McCain taps Palin for VP!

[indio]

Now I remember why I don't get involved in these discussions.

People like to play experts, regardless of their understanding. I like reading the stuff, even if for many people enthusiasm acts as a fill-in for insight. It's still good reading. You shouldn't question your desire to contribute, imo. You come off as decent and reasonable instead of chest-thumping fundamentalist. I hope you re-enter the fray.

[HATEFACE]

PD, now you are just being an idiotic sh*t-disturber. "Welfare" in the sense usually derided by Republicans was ended in 1996, and it was always a posterchild boogieman republicans have always hated. Hating welfare is such a fundamental piece of party ideology that you have to be stupid or blind to miss it. Go back to poking out the eyes of kittens.

Lies!

[HATEFACE]

The pick wasn't political. He chose someone who would be a hard-working partner in governance, despite the fact Biden probably hurts his chances at election. A politically risky, and yet responsible move, versus McCain's irresponsible gamble. The problem with Democrats historically is they are willing to lose to hold up their ideals. It means they lose a lot. Carter made decisions he felt were morally mandated, knowing full well it would probably cost him re-election.

That's one way to view it.

[oldgrayrogue]

Obama is the exception to the reality of the American dream, not the rule. The truth is that under republicans the last 60 years, social mobility is reduced, not increased; social inequality goes up; and economic growth goes down perhaps as much as a full percentage point depending on how you look at it. For the vast majority of us, where you end up in life is most directly dependent on how your parents ended up.

We know welfare isn't the answer, and no one is proposing a return to the welfare system despite the claims of some republican commentators. Where a difference can be made is making decent education and at least some basic level of health care available to everyone. These things are enablers...they are the boots you need to do any bootstrap pulling. Right now, these are not available to all...there isn't even equal opportunity, let alone equity in outcomes (which we all know should not be imposed). The republican position isn't one of living the American dream, its a policy of winner-take-all.

Very well said. Cipher, this is, respectfully, what I would say in response to your post on Obama.

As far as fiscal conservatism, I agree that fiscal responsibility has to be exercised by government, but that is hardly the case with the republican administration that has been in office these past eight years. I don't think anyone can credibly argue that economically the country is better off now than it was eight years ago. The Clinton presidencies were a model of fiscal responsibility and economic growth. We will see a return to those same winning fiscal policies in an Obama administration. The same allegations of tax and spend liberalism were made against Bill Clinton. They are nothing more than propaganda.

HATEFACE: Acknowledging the reality that racism and bigotry are alive and well in this country, and is without doubt feuling the decisions of many voters in this election, whether they are willing to admit it or not, doesn't make one a racist. Nor does my acknowledging your accusations constitute any admission on my part. I am not passing any judgment about you as an individual, but rather commenting upon my opinions of what is influencing the electorate at large. I'll thank you to do the same. If race plays no part in your decision making process, that's commendable.

The republican party has made a conscious, and indeed admitted, decision to make this race not about the important economic issues in this election but about the persons running in the race. Why do you think they want voters to be making a choice solely between McCain and Obama, as individuals, when they pull the curtain closed? Bigotry has become insidious in our culture where once it was open. Think about the reasons underlying this strategy, and the choice they want the election to be about for voters, and I think you will catch my meaning.

You say its about qualifications and experience, but that can't be the case given McCain's selection of his running mate. Once again we see hypocricy. Obama is derided in one campaign ad after another as a celebrity and then Palin is acclaimed as a "Rock Star" pick for VP. Am I the only one who finds this insulting to their intelligence? I hope not.

Cipher, you say their have been unfair sexist attacks. To me it is here that the hypocricy and gamesmanship of the republican party seem to know no bounds. Obama is vilified in one internet smear and right wing radio talk show after another regarding his religion, his upbringing, his family, his wife etc. Then the falsehoods are actually published in a book: "Obama Nation" which is catapulted to the New York Times bestseller list by bulk sales backed by right wing groups to lend it some manufactured credibility. Yet when the qualifications, affiliations and record, of McCain's "surprise" VP pick are even dared to be questioned, and the fact of her 17 year old daughter's illegitimate pregnancy reported (which the McCain campaign actually released to the press BTW) the republicans cry foul. Sexism they call it -- and then bill their veep pick as a "Hot Mom" and her supporters sell thong underwear with her name on it.

This harkens to the Bush administration's proven practice of calling anyone who expressed opposition to the Iraq war or their policies unamerican or unpatriotic. The simple reporting of negative facts is viewed as out of bounds and denounced. It is truly disconcerting to watch such blatant inconsistencies at the highest level of political office, which are being continued in this campaign.

The most amazing example of hypocricy, to me though, is this notion that McCain/Palin are the agents of needed change who will reform Washington. Is it possible that the republican party actually believes that the American public is so clueless as to accept that the representatives of the party that is currently in power, who completely embrace the staunch social conservative agenda of its base, are the catalysts of reform and change? Its mind boggling. Yet they must either believe this, or at least cynically believe that their spin on reality will sell to the great uneducated -- or more pointedly unquestioning -- masses, because that is exactly the message they are broadcasting.

Anyway, I know that I said I was checking out of this debate, and believe me I really want to, but these issues are too heartfelt for me also. I have three kids -- and two girls -- and the idea of the America that may await them if the policies and beliefs of someone like Sarah Palin become law is truly frightening. In the words of one of my favorite rockstars, I hope we "Don't Get Fooled Again."

[ç i p h é r]

It's strange that you think running an administration the way you think it should be run equates to abuse of power. This is what it means to be an executive. You are a manager. You are running an operation. You hire people for specific duties. If they do not fulfill those duties to your satisfaction, it's your prerogative to fire them.

Have you no management experience? Don't you work in a company? Do you not have specific goals you need to achieve? Do you not have certain standards you need to abide by? Don't you have a boss that defines these for you and evaluates your performance against them? Ultimately, if Palin is running her operation poorly, voters can decide to fire her too, yet they overwhelmingly approve of the way she is running things (80%?). The day to day management of the operation and decisions over hiring and firing are entirely hers to make (provided they don't violate the law, naturally). The buck stops with her, after all, and that's how business, public or private, is run.

On the issue of "trooper gate", the story is unsurprisingly incomplete. Here's the side of the story that is not being told, for obvious reasons:

1. The trooper threatened to kill Palin's father ("you'll eat lead if you...") if he hired an attorney to represent his daughter. The father filed a complaint with the authorities.
2. The trooper tazered his 11 yr old step son. (EDIT: clarified)
3. The trooper drank (alcohol) while on duty.
4. The trooper hunted moose without a license, a violation of state law.

Now, these are easily grounds for termination in any job, but particularly in law enforcement where upholding the law is your bloody job. Certainly, if one of my employees conducted themselves in this manner, threatened a member of my family, they would be terminated with the least hesitation.

What's ironic is that had this guy remained on the job and gone on to hurt someone else, this event would no doubt be brought up and used to demonstrate negligence on the part of the governor's administration. Unless there are other facts as yet unrevealed, she absolutely did the right thing.

Abuse of power from my point of view is using your position for personal gain. The examples you cited don't cross that threshold. She's still doing what she thinks is in the public's best interest, including firing people who don't buy into her vision or are downright obstructing it.

p.s. Watch the video. Humor (good or bad) doesn't come across in a transcript.

[oldgrayrogue]

Cipher, serving the public as an elected official in a representative form of government is, and indeed should be, very different from running a business for profit. To be sure, certain skillsets are transferrable from business and management to public office, but the two callings are very different. Someone in public office should strive to avoid even the appearance of impropriety in the execution of their duties. What's missing in your expose on "troopergate" as its come to be called, is that the trooper in question was going through a messy divorce with Palin's sister. And the official she fired, for not firing him, was apparently exercising fine judgment up to that point. Additionally, it is, I believe, an independent body, as well as the police union representing law enforcement, that have filed the ethics violations against her that are being investigated.

The point I am trying to make is not that Palin is "wrong" here, but that there are two sides to every story, and that investigative reporting into this issue regarding a VP candidate is certainly legitimate inquiry. I have heard all of the points you made about the trooper reported in the mainstreeam media -- even on *gasp* MSNBC. =) Certainly, if it comes out that she did in fact abuse her authority, and these allegations against the trooper are not true (all sorts of nasty allegations are made in contentious divorces as we all know), I think you would agree its problematic. That is still under investigation and yet to be determined. The problem as I see it, is when the mcCain campaign says that its somehow wrong, sexist or unfair to even talk about it.

[Lusipher]

Honestly, I never understood why most conservative republicans don't absolutely LOVE Obama

Because hes a liar and a crook. Chicago mafia ties and ties to a radical preacher and teacher. His wife until just recently didnt even like her country. Hes for Partial abortions, hes for gay rights, and he hasnt done one damn thing while in office in IL. He has ties to his mentor, Emil Jones, who is one of the biggest crooked senators IL currently has. If you can line Emil's pockets he will vote your way. So, Obama has had great teachers

The dude doesnt have the experience to lead this country. There is nothing else that needs to be said. You folks all rapped up in his bullshit need to learn "the cult of personality" doesnt run a country. Experience and hard work does. Two things he doesnt have.

[Rusty]

[Lusipher]

Or he could turn into a crummy leader like Rusty was and we can impeach him or at least try before he quits.

[Mulu]

It's strange that you think running an administration the way you think it should be run equates to abuse of power.

It's an abuse of power to fire people from the government for disagreeing with you or not totally supporting your administration, or failing to fire your sister's former husband just because you said to. It's also bad management, since those careerists typically have a lot of skills. You apparently haven't ever worked in government or been involved in higher management.

The only reason the firings weren't illegal is because they were department heads so they were outside of civil service. It still shows very poor judgement on her part. The attorney firings at the DOJ were not illegal either, but they showed an ugly side to the administration and very poor judgement.

Ultimately, if Palin is running her operation poorly, voters can decide to fire her too, yet they overwhelmingly approve of the way she is running things (80%?).

Bush had that approval rating early on also....

The day to day management of the operation and decisions over hiring and firing are entirely hers to make (provided they don't violate the law, naturally). The buck stops with her, after all, and that's how business, public or private, is run.

No it's not at all. Public and private administration are totally different, a common mistake made by those who only know the business end.

Let's pretend you're the chief of police and I'm the new mayor. You've been in policing for twenty five years, starting as a rookie and rising up through the ranks. You know all your duties and responsibilities and meet them well. However, my staff informs me that you didn't have a sign in your yard saying "Vote for Mulu." Being a coward, I don't call you into my office, I just mail you a letter saying, "Due to your lack of support for my administration, I will be seeking a new chief of police. I expect to recieve your resignation by the end of the week."

Now, wearing the shoes of that chief, how do you see that action? More importantly, as OGR pointed out, how does the public? How do the police officers whose morale you are responsible for?

Government is actually run very differently than business, or at least it should be. As a mayor, you are subject to Public Integrity investigations by the city, state, or even the Federal government. You swear an oath to uphold the laws. You are responsible for enforcing the law. When was the last time you saw a corporate executive swear an oath to uphold the law? The "government = business" analogy is horribly misinformed. You have no police powers as a businessman. You can't abrogate people's civil liberties. You are not operating within Civil Service Rules.

On the issue of "trooper gate", the story is unsurprisingly incomplete. Here's the side of the story that is not being told, for obvious reasons:

1. The trooper threatened to kill Palin's father ("you'll eat lead if you...") if he hired an attorney to represent his daughter. The father filed a complaint with the authorities.
2. The trooper tazered his 11 yr old step son. (EDIT: clarified)
3. The trooper drank (alcohol) while on duty.
4. The trooper hunted moose without a license, a violation of state law.

Now, these are easily grounds for termination in any job, but particularly in law enforcement where upholding the law is your bloody job.

There are MOU's and Civil Service rules, and past conduct and progressive discipline to consider, as well as similarly situated cases of other officers and their behavior and resulting discipline (past practices), all things you wouldn't understand. For all you know, getting drunk on duty and hunting moose without a license in Alaska is called "Sunday." The only one of those that would qualify for potential termination is #2, and even that would depend on the circumstances (some 11 year old boys are pretty aggressive). Also, those are only allegations.

Abuse of power from my point of view is using your position for personal gain.

That's not correct. It's any intentional or improper use of Government authority or resources. It obviously can include many many things, including actions that in no way benefit the person abusing the power.

[fluffmonster]

Nobody comes out of Chicago politics smelling good...nobody. They all have to make hard choices. The Virgin Mary herself wouldn't make it out without bruises on her knees.

[Grand Fromage]

That's how the country started and it didn't work at all, sir.

I'm no expert on American history, but wasn't the United States formed to kick out the British? I don't think that's much of a concern these days. A lot of American states are powerful enough to stand on their own feet.

The first government was formed under the Articles of Confederation, which was written and put into practice during the war. At the time there wasn't really a country since we were still fighting, so the weaknesses didn't show. After the war, it quickly became clear that the confederation just didn't work. States didn't have compatible interests, larger states were bullying smaller ones, the economy was almost impossible to maintain because each state had its own monetary system, tariffs, et cetera. So, the Articles were thrown out and the Constitution put together in 1788, and has been the government ever since.

(Some of) the states were powerful enough to stand on their own under the Confederation, but you simply cannot run a country without a central government. It doesn't work. Today you have states like California that have enough internal resources and economy that they could operate as their own nations, but in the beginning Virginia and New York could've done that, too. Federalism is not perfect, but it seems to work the best of all available systems.

[oldgrayrogue]

Honestly, I never understood why most conservative republicans don't absolutely LOVE Obama

Because hes a liar and a crook. Chicago mafia ties and ties to a radical preacher and teacher. His wife until just recently didnt even like her country. Hes for Partial abortions, hes for gay rights, and he hasnt done one damn thing while in office in IL. He has ties to his mentor, Emil Jones, who is one of the biggest crooked senators IL currently has. If you can line Emil's pockets he will vote your way. So, Obama has had great teachers

The dude doesnt have the experience to lead this country. There is nothing else that needs to be said. You folks all rapped up in his bullshit need to learn "the cult of personality" doesnt run a country. Experience and hard work does. Two things he doesnt have.

Do you mean like lying to the entirety of the American people, and indeed the world, to start and fight an unjust war and invade a sovereign nation? Something McCain just condemned on the part of Russia invading Georgia after Georgia invaded another country btw. Do you mean like capitalizing upon the swell of sympathy, support and patriotism of a people attacked by islamic terrorists to attack a nation that had nothing whatsoever to do with said terrorists, and causing the death of thousands of American servicemen and ruining the lives of thousands of American families as a result, while spending billions of dollars of our hard earned money to line the pockets of Halliburton and big oil? McCain did not only support these things, he has based his campaign on them.

As far as his claimed ties to organized crime, well, I doubt there is a shred of truth to that because if their was the republican party would be all over it. Maybe their afraid of the mob. Who knows?

Ties to a radical preacher? Martin Luther King Jr. was a radical preacher. I bet you get a day off in his name every day. Are you saying that you adopt the views of anyone you have ever heard speak who utters something controversial? Unlike Palin of course who doesn't need ties to radicalism, as she herself would imprison a young girl who has an abortion that is the result of rape or incest and thinks everyone should learn creationism, because you know, Darwin was a jerk. Or maybe he was a democrat. Oh and global warming? She thinks thats left wing propaganda. Guess she didn't notice the arctic ice shelf the size of Manhattan that floated into the sea the other day. Or maybe she did and just thinks its God's wrath over all the gays.

His wife doesn't like this country? Well, at least he isn't married to someone who has belonged to a party that wants to have his home state secede from this country like Palin. We call that treason. And I am sure you would agree that marriage is quite a strong tie. Oh yeah, and she attended their convention a few years back. Guess that means she has "ties" to treasonous radicals.

Great teachers? last I checked Harvard was a pretty good school. And being elected president of the Harvard Law Review, well its not the Yale chearleading team but hey, its pretty impressive. And Palin -- a report just came over the AP that she transferred colleges like 6 times and no one knows why. Oh and McCain's campaign didn't even bother to call the schools to ask. She has admitted she smoked pot -- maybe she was a pot head.

Ah and the "cult of personality." Wasn't it Mccain's campaign manager who recently stated that this campaign is not about issues its about personalites? Or something. Whatever the exact quote, if you have watched a minute of the RNC, the cult of personality is all their campaign is about because its all they have to offer. What's mcCain's agenda? -- He's a war hero. What's palin's stance on foreign policy? -- she lives next door to Russia and her son is on his way to Iraq. What is McCain's economic policy? -- He really doesn't "do" economy. Now that is what I call experience and hard work.

Experience. People said the same thing about Bill Clinton. Nuff said. But you probably hate him too because you know, he's a fornicator.

Really Lusipher, if you are going to shout, pound the table and toss some bullshit against the wall do it with a bit more style. You started this thread. If you only wanted to hear opinions that are in line with yours, and deride the opinions of others that disagree with you,you should have said so up front.

[Lusipher]

Nope. This is ALFA. More liberals per square inch. I knew exactly what I was doing. There is no hope for this place especially since its a global community. Its like The United Nations of Neverwinter Nights.

[HATEFACE]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx4pN-aiofw
Finally found the link.
It does get bit better in college but not community college. They need to be improved but they function differently than state colleges who have loads of money.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4fe9GlWS8
Self explanitory.