The Religion thread

[Mulu]

Thousands of people do not die for what they know to be a lie.

Only a handful would have known it was a lie, perhaps only one, the guy who made up the story in the first place.

Furthermore, there was no motive for such a lie. Lies are always told for some selfish advantage. What advantage did the "conspirators" derive from their "lie" ? They were scorned, imprisoned, enslaved, tortured, exiled, crucified, boiled alive, burned alive, beheaded, disemboweled, and/or fed to lions in the Colosseum.....hardly a list of perks.

And I earlier refuted this. You could say the same thing about Al Qaida, the insurgents in Iraq, etc. Their members have faced tremendous adversity. Being willing to die for a belief does not make that belief truthful. There is also the possibility, perhaps I should high liklihood, that they believed their own lie. I've met people who are convinced they've seen angels. I call them whack jobs, though I believe the technical term is "deluded."

If there had been a conspiracy, it would have been revealed by the faith's many enemies who had both the interest and the power to expose any fraud.

It's hard to produce the body of a fictional character. Even if he had been real, theft of that body would have eliminated the only evidence the story of Resurrection was a fraud. This is all starting to sound like UFO conspiracy theory.

The disciples had nothing to gain by fabricating a story and starting a new religion. His followers faced hardship, ridicule, hostility, and martyrs' deaths. In light of this, they could never have sustained such unwavering motivation if they knew what they were preaching was a lie.

Again, the martys of Islam fall into the same category.

Had a Roman guard seen angels in the empty tomb of some executed Jew, don't you think that would have merited a report? After all, if Jesus rose from the dead and rolled back the stone covering his tomb, wouldn't the Roman guard have noticed?

They did. And I'm sure it did merit a report; one that would've resulted in their deaths. Which explains why they fled as the Gospel records reveal. What ever became of them, we do not know. Probably exile, if they weren't captured and punished.

I don't understand why the Romans would have tried to cover up a supernatural event. Ancient peoples were even more superstitious than modern people, and the Romans were willing to pray to any and all gods. Seeing actual supernatural events would have a profound impact on them. They wouldn't simply run away into obscurity, and their leaders would have been very interested in such events. It would have likely called for mass sacrifices.

But at this point, we're no longer even discussing possibilities. At the point where you are debating the actual effect of an appearance of angels on ancient guards, you may as well be talking about whether Heracles was visited by two nymphs - Pleasure and Virtue - who offered him a choice between a pleasant and easy life or a severe but glorious life. This is just one irrational myth among thousands, all of which have equal validity to an outside observer (namely, zero). It's all mumbo jumbo.

[Mulu]

But as an end cap, here's what I take away from all of this. Yes, all expressions of the supernatural are false. But they are strong evidence of the power of our imagination. And the fact that so many of us are willing to believe these imaginary happenings and follow the ideologies that flow from them without any evidence shows that we can be loyal, to a fault, to ideals.

All we have to do as a race is separate the mysticism from the imagination, place our loyalty in better ideals that include all of humanity instead of only the "chosen" or the "saved," and those same traits could be used to propel humanity foward into a much better future. The first step off the path of self-annihilation is to discard religion, and all of the sectarian divisions and irrational thinking it causes, and instead embrace our own humanity and its potential. Stop waiting for some mythical beast or creator spirit to save us and instead save ourselves. That is the challenge that faces humanity. That and ending the destructive results of an overconcentration of wealth and power. Big hurdles to be sure, but with great rewards if they are overcome.

[Killthorne]

But as an end cap, here's what I take away from all of this. Yes, all expressions of the supernatural are false. But they are strong evidence of the power of our imagination. And the fact that so many of us are willing to believe these imaginary happenings and follow the ideologies that flow from them without any evidence shows that we can be loyal, to a fault, to ideals.

All we have to do as a race is separate the mysticism from the imagination, place our loyalty in better ideals that include all of humanity instead of only the "chosen" or the "saved," and those same traits could be used to propel humanity foward into a much better future. The first step off the path of self-annihilation is to discard religion, and all of the sectarian divisions and irrational thinking it causes, and instead embrace our own humanity and its potential. Stop waiting for some mythical beast or creator spirit to save us and instead save ourselves. That is the challenge that faces humanity. That and ending the destructive results of an overconcentration of wealth and power. Big hurdles to be sure, but with great rewards if they are overcome.

I'm sorry but there's nothing wrong with humbly believing in something. As long as it ain't hurting anyone or judging someone... I don't see what the big deal is. Just don't generalize. Big problem with most christians is they DO think they are better than everyone else, that they are "saved" and/or are righteous. What they tend to forget, is they are sinners too, according to their beliefs, and no sin is greater than the other. And christianity is not the only faith that has this fault.

As for the overconcentration of wealth and power... I can't help but point out that there are many beliefs out there that don't overconcentrate at all on those things. Man has made that happen. Not god. And the straying from any sort of humility, or realization that we're pretty much screwed no matter what we do.

It's nice and all that you would wish that we could all save ourselves, in recognizing our potential for being humane to everyone, but that ain't gonna happen. I wish it would happen too, but that's about as far-fetched as anyone believing in a creator.

~Killthorne~

[Mulu]

I'm sorry but there's nothing wrong with humbly believing in something. As long as it ain't hurting anyone or judging someone... I don't see what the big deal is.

I'll let someone else answer that.

[Mikayla]

Past 10 pages, so I will lock. IA may certainly unlock if he sees fit, but I would suggest starting a new thread if folks are so inclined.