Bullying Discussion

ThinkTank · Post by **ThinkTank** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:33 pm

ALFAModerator3 wrote:Context and intent are irrelevant factors on these forums.

Your avatar is obviously racist because of a passing similarity to this picture:

Please remove it because of said negative association.

Keryn · Post by **Keryn** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:47 pm

I have tried to keep away from the drama, I'm fairly new to Alfa and its funny that the first thing i was told about Alfa was.

"Alfa is a great place, well built PWs, awesome DMs, great RPers, but stay away from the forums because that will drive you off from Alfa. The Drama and BS thrown in there is just too much to handle"

And so I did this for the most part, i read the forums I have interest in which relates to the guild where my PC is part of, and the forums related with the responsibilities I decided to take on Alfa, but then something happens and like Mik said, it just sucks you into it.

The IRC is a flame, bullying fest, i came to Alfa searching for mature players, this argument of "its the internets" is plain BS, I dont play NwN seeking a second personality or trying to be different, Im the same person that all my friend know in RL, so i came here to play to enjoy RPing and to have fun.

When I log in the IRC what do I see? The way people throw offensive words at each other is simply pathetic, being hostile towards others, and this is what really gets to me, the LACK OF RESPECT towards those who actually do something to improve Alfa is always present.

I would call them parasites, they suck Alfa's life, and add nothing to it but disorder, being behind a screen doesn't mean you can be a jerk and offend people in the other side, I myself am tired of it. Seems like some people take special pleasure and maybe they do it their hobby to being hostile towards others, insulting became their "thing"... This is the type of attitude i would expect in a hack and slash server filled with young kids trying to measure their dicks and always claiming theirs is the biggest.

These people, are the ones who should pack and leave. They are not doing anything here other then overcoming their personal insecurities by being BAD when there is no need to look at peoples face.

This is a gaming community, people seek it to game and have fun, for other things then this they should seek other place, and while they are here those who actually seek Alfa to add something, be it their RP or actual work to improve Alfa, are pushed away because a minority are simply very hostile towards others.

Zic said something quite interesting which makes it even worst.

Group 1 ( those who act diferently in the internets ) is getting bigger, taking persons from Group 2 ( who were respectful ) into Group 1

Well this is like a disease, or a virus... it simply spreads... those who were respectfull think its ok to be a**hats and star doing it aswell... Its a shame really!

Faeryl · Post by **Faeryl** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:49 pm

I was trying to formulate a response that hit the core of my feelings on this. But, as often happens, Mik took the words from my mouth, and in a much more eloquent fasion than I could ever have spoken.

Mikayla wrote:I am loathe to post in ALFAs forums anymore (and I don’t visit chat ever any longer, except once recently to ask advice on Age of Conan) but I will post here to side with Wynna.

There has been a lot of discussion lately about moderation, people leaving because of forums and chat, Nalo Jade's posts, and now, bullying. Much has been said about whether people really leave because of forums and chat, or because of Rusty. I cannot speak for others, but I can speak for myself. Lately, I’ve chosen not to do so because I am tired of fighting with people on ALFA’s boards. But I am at the point that I am ready to walk away from ALFA – the problem is, that I love ALFA and its community is my community or at least it was once upon a time. So, I feel I can not go quietly into the night without at least trying to make a difference.

I did not reach this point because of Rusty, though he certainly beat the tar out of my ALFA-love. I considered leaving ALFA because of him and I suppose I nearly did. But as bad as Rusty was, I can survive people like him. And I did not reach this point because of in-game conditions – I have my complaints about both NWN and NWN2, but I am solving those problems (by forming a group in NWN2 and by seeking alternatives to ALFA’s regular NWN servers, like Vendrin’s campaign, for NWN1). No, what is really driving me out at this point is the negativity on the forums and the mob of bullies who dominate ALFA’s chat and forums. They may well take pride in that – I don’t know, and I don’t really care at this point. But Wynna is correct – ALFA is suffering from bullying.

It comes from a relatively small group of people who like to mob up on others, post lulz-worthy pics, and generally reduce ALFA’s boards to the same kind of useless flame-filled pointless drama-fests that exist on other internet forums (some worse, some better) all while pretending to be doing this for the better of ALFA. I have begun thinking of this particular group as the “Four A**hats of the ALFApocalypse” (something else they may well be proud of) because (for me at least) we are approaching the end. Everyday we seem to lose more of the people dedicated to role-play, to building or to DMing, and we retain those whose primary interest in ALFA seems to be trolling and mobbing, to the point that the majority of new threads are not about anything game related, but simply flame-fests between the four a**hats of the ALFApocalypse and whoever or whatever has grabbed their attention today.

The attitude of “that’s just the internet” doesn’t fly. Yes, the internet is full of trolls and flame-warriors and people bullying others behind the mask of internet anonymity, and many people (primarily those same trolls, flame-warriors and bullies) seem to accept and even like it. But not everyone, and certainly not all of ALFA. Just because the internet is full of asinine jerks doesn’t mean we should tolerate such behavior in ALFA. ALFA is our community, and it will be what we make of it – and if we make it a place where only the thickest skinned trolls can survive, then that’s all that will be left in ALFA, and everyone else, the role-players, the builders, the DMs, they will move on. Because lets face it, we have better things to do then spend our time arguing with people – like, for example, playing the game. And the thick-skinned trolls are not going to keep ALFA alive – that’s not their purpose. They just war with others on the internets to satiate their own personal insecurities, and you cannot run a persistent world project on that. Let them take over, and it will be the end of ALFA.

And we may well be approaching the end – something I’ve never said about ALFA before in all the years I’ve been here. And I don’t say it lightly – I say it because of what I see – I see that Misty signs up to be a DM on Sembia, but cannot get players. I see that we have a beautiful new server in TSM, but months after its gone Live, it is still alone. I see that we have grand ideas for servers, but that few are actually getting built because only a handful of people (Indio, ayergo, Thangorn, etc) are actually willing to roll-up sleeves and build. I see that even fewer people are willing to dive into the guts of NWN and support our old servers (Zelk). And I see all of ALFA’s NWN2 game play hinging on the efforts and incredible selflessness of one person – Acadius Lost. What if tomorrow, the a**hats of the ALFApocalypse drive Acadius off? ALFA is not lost – not yet – but it is in a very tenuous position it has not been in before, not since I came here over 5 years ago in early 2003; a handful of key defections and ALFA will cease to exist.

And what drives more people out of ALFA than any other single thing? I used to think it was “real life” but now I realize its not – its other ALFAns. Other ALFAns being a**hats to their fellow community members. Instead of embracing our comrades, we skewer them. Instead of working with them, we complain about what they do. Instead of solving problems, we post lolcat pics to ridicule the community and its members. And frankly, that is not working out so great for us, unless your goal is to burn ALFA to the ground. And perhaps that is the goal – perhaps the four a**hats of the ALFApocalypse really do want to see ALFA burn. In that case, they should not change what they are doing. But the rest of ALFA needs to react if it wants to save the community from itself.

I am not a fan of moderation. I never have been, and I chafe already at the new moderation plan. I see some of what the moderators post, and I shudder – anonymous power is not a good thing. Accountability is good. Transparency is good.

Having said that, however, I am coming to think that some draconian moderation is necessary if ALFA is to have a hope of surviving. So far as I can see, ALFA will not likely survive the a**hats of the ALFApocalypse – so – it is up to the moderators and the Admin to intervene. Personally, I think the Admin should act as the moderators directly. Drop the anonymity, increase transparency, and through the elections, we have accountability. But … that is not as important as simply getting the job done at this point.

I have said it before, and I will say again now – think before you post. There are human beings on the other side of those internets tubes. And those human beings are part of your community here in ALFA. When you flame them, when you set them ablaze with your oh-so-witty-and-sarcastic remarks and pictures, you risk burning down your own village, because like them or not, we are all ALFAns and we all ‘live’ here. Destroy them, and you destroy yourselves.

And before you accuse me of hypocrisy because of my use of the term “four a**hats of the ALFApocalypse” let me clarify – the membership fluctuates daily. There does seem to be a small permanent membership as I mentioned before, but a lot of us get sucked into it from time to time, like I did just now. This is not the post I want to make, but I don’t know how to write the post I really want to make – the post that convinces the a**hats of the ALFApocalypse to stop bullying people, to stop spamming, to stop whining and start contributing. The post that convinces the flame-warriors out there (of which I used to be the queen, I admit) that the people they are flaming are actual human beings, and part of the same community. The post that rallies ALFAns to come together instead of tear themselves apart. The post that heals this wounded community. If I could write that post, I would, but I am not that skilled – I come from the war and drama side of the house, not the calm, healing side, so this is the best I can do. But know that I right this in the hopes of all that I have said above – that we can drop the antagonism, that we can come together, that we can stop the bullying, and that we can heal the community. Because if we don’t – the community will die.

+1

Thanks for saying what needed to be said Mik.

Burt · Post by **Burt** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:55 pm

For what it's worth I'm opposed to bullying and causing genuine offense in general. Moderated: References of this nature are not permitted.

Mord · Post by **Mord** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:59 pm

I also am opposed to bullying and causing genuine offense in general.

oldgrayrogue · Post by **oldgrayrogue** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:03 pm

To respond to the OP's question, in the context of internet forums, anything posted (either in words or pictures) to ridicule or belittle either the subject or the target of the post is bullying IMO. Spamming a thread posted to discuss a topic seriously with inane drivel is also bullying IMO. Making personal attacks on a poster rather than responding intelligently with a point relevent to the topic at hand is bullying IMO.

I don't think the above comes as a surprise to anyone. The bully knows it when he posts it, the target when he is on the receiving end and the entire community when they read it.

Call me soft, or heavens forbid, mature, but if we all just applied the good ole "golden rule" to our forum behavior none of this would be an issue. When you sit and type a post, take a second before you click the submit button to read it over. If it is something you would not like said or done to you then keep it to yourself or take a moment to say it a different way that is not derogatory or otherwise inflamatory.

A little self moderation goes a long way.

Our boards need not be sterile, humorless, conservative or G-Rated. There is no reason, however, why they can't be civil.

zicada · Post by **zicada** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:09 pm

Where is all this uncivil, horrible bullying though ?

Say, in the past week, when and where has this occurred ?

What a lot of you are posting, and what im seeing on the forums, don't add up.

Some actual examples would be nice. And no, i do not want to hear about Rusty.

HATEFACE · Post by **HATEFACE** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:13 pm

as far as internets go we're better then /b/ at least. I mean, that's got to account for something, right?

oldgrayrogue · Post by **oldgrayrogue** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:21 pm

Zicada: Take a look at the number of forum moderator edits on the boards in this last week (this thread included), and I think you will have your answer.

HATEFACE · Post by **HATEFACE** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:25 pm

It could also be that our friendly writhing shapeless mass of forum moderators with pusstual eyes that constantly form and burst are to over zealous in their soul sucking.

zicada · Post by **zicada** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:26 pm

oldgrayrogue wrote:Zicada: Take a look at the number of forum moderator edits on the boards in this last week (this thread included), and I think you will have your answer.

Nope, that doesn't answer my question at all.

I would like some actual hands on url's to threads where people are outright being bullied. From reading the past posts in this thread, it seems like its happening quite a lot.

Maybe we dont understand what the other is talking about at all.

If photo chopping a guys green hat into a brown hat is being a bully then i honestly don't get it, and i must say, if that is the case, i am hardly the oddball here,- and neither are mik's four asshats, whom she refuses to name for some reason.

oldgrayrogue · Post by **oldgrayrogue** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:29 pm

That's just arguing balls and strikes Helios.

HATEFACE · Post by **HATEFACE** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:32 pm

I'm talking about a shapeless horror and you're over here discussing balls and strikes. I don't know what is with you. There is an inability to communicate because I have no idea what balls and strikes means.

ALFAModerator2 · Post by **ALFAModerator2** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:40 pm

zicada wrote:I would like some actual hands on url's to threads where people are outright being bullied. From reading the past posts in this thread, it seems like its happening quite a lot.

Threads of this nature are moved to the moderators' forum. It is private, and intentionally so; making the content publically viewable makes it the subject for more (destructive) discourse.

There are ten people with access to the forum, if I understand permissions properly (the four currently-appointed moderators, our five admin, and the CC head), and I am sure that the majority, if not all, of them would testify to how vile the content therein gets.

Keryn · Post by **Keryn** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:44 pm

The forums are moderated but what happens in IRC is quite visible to all.

Anyone with the logs of Alfa main channel can testify to this! And dont bring up the "story" that IRC is a diferent thing, because it is a place where people of this community gather to speak and to get to know each other, it does play an important role and if you ask me its a place that drives people away from. Why? Im sure you know because you spend a lot of time in there!