ACLU sues Boeing over CIA transfers

[Mord]

Owned

[Zakharra]

Owned

Who owned who?

[dergon darkhelm]

To get the CIA money, you need to have the government admit guilt, not possible.

To get Boeing money, you need to make a stink and get the stock price to drop, then get them to settle out of court, very possible.

As a one time card carrying ACLU member myself, although admittedly not an insider or employee, I certainly have some bias here. However, I am fairly confident that the goal of the ACLU in this case is *not* to get a quiet a out-of court settlement for big $$.

The ACLU wants to force actual change in policy and actions of both governmental and private groups/corporations that meet their stated goals.

To that end, they are better better served by litigating cases for as long they can, thereby hopefully creating legal precedents, pushing the sued entities into behavior modification through the bad PR the companies/government receives during the process, and giving notice to other entities that might try the same bad actions in the future that they may face punitive measures if they do.
____

As for legal fees received by ACLU attorneys, I would wager that for a talented trial attorney familiar with corporate law, working for the ACLU is likely one of the *lowest* paying jobs you could take.

[BalvinSlice]

To that end, they are better better served by litigating cases for as long they can, thereby hopefully creating legal precedents, pushing the sued entities into behavior modification through the bad PR the companies/government receives during the process, and giving notice to other entities that might try the same bad actions in the future that they may face punitive measures if they do.

OK, I'll bite,

So in filing a lawsuit against Boeing, the ACLU is trying to create a legal precedent that goes something like this...

"If as the seller of a product, you have reason to believe that the purchaser of the product may use the product to violate someone’s civil liberties you should not proceed with the transaction."

OK, with that in mind, then manufactures are responsible for some level of investigation of the buyer intentions… like

Not sell guns to convicts
Not sell computers to child molesters
Not sell drugs to junkies
Not sell raw materials to foreign countries that use child labor

And many would believe no products at all to the current US government

Hmm, what about selling computers, printers, cameras and the like to news organizations convicted in a civil suit of liable and misrepresentation…

Wait…

Why can’t they just hold the CIA accountable?
Why can't they hold George W. Bush accountable?

Seems they are missing the target? Perhaps it is the money.

[Mikayla]

Why can’t they just hold the CIA accountable?
Why can't they hold George W. Bush accountable?

Two words: Sovereign Immunity. Sovereign immunity means (in short, simple terms) that the Federal and State Governments (and thus, their agencies) cannot be sued unless they consent to be sued. So, it is very hard to sue the government if the government does not want to be sued. Not impossible, but very difficult.

Seems they are missing the target? Perhaps it is the money.

Gimme a break - no one at the ACLU gets this money, they don't get rich, and as pointed out previously, most of them make far far less working for the ACLU than they would working for a private law firm.


P.S. I think a far more likely scenario is that by suing Boeing, win lose or draw, they cause Boeing a huge public-relations problem, cost Boeing money, and generally raise awareness of the issue. This may, in turn, cause Boeing's folks to put pressure on their elected officials to stop the complained-of behavior. More important still, this lawsuit keeps the issue in the public eye, and generally puts pressure on the current administration (albeit indirect) to stop the "torture flights."

[ayergo]

While its all well and good to try and change things, i think its a bit unfair to sue Boeing.

I'm pretty sure Boeing didn't exactly "volunteer" for the task. Coersion is more likely.

Its easy to sit here on the interweb and criticize the big wigs for not standing up and refusing to do what the CIA wants, but its unfair to prosecute people for being afraid.

If some mooks in suits from the government showed up at your place, showed you some pictures of your family/home to disturb you and asked for some simple help, i'm sure that 99% of people would buckle. There are some extraordinary people who have resisted despite direct threats to their life from the CIA, but humans will be human.

[BalvinSlice]

P.S. I think a far more likely scenario is that by suing Boeing, win lose or draw, they cause Boeing a huge public-relations problem, cost Boeing money, and generally raise awareness of the issue. This may, in turn, cause Boeing's folks to put pressure on their elected officials to stop the complained-of behavior. More important still, this lawsuit keeps the issue in the public eye, and generally puts pressure on the current administration (albeit indirect) to stop the "torture flights."

OK, I conceed they are suing Boeing becuase they cant get to the government not for the money.

But I disagree that Boeing's employees deserve to be drug into the mud because of what Georgie and the CIA did.

[Mikayla]

For my part, I never said Boeing deserved to be sued, I only explain why the ACLU might sue Boeing rather than the government.

ayergo:

Its easy to sit here on the interweb and criticize the big wigs for not standing up and refusing to do what the CIA wants, but its unfair to prosecute people for being afraid.

If some mooks in suits from the government showed up at your place, showed you some pictures of your family/home to disturb you and asked for some simple help, i'm sure that 99% of people would buckle. There are some extraordinary people who have resisted despite direct threats to their life from the CIA, but humans will be human.

Indeed. There is a story (quite possibly apocryphal) about the 1956 secret speech Nikita Kruschev gave about Stalin. In that secret speech (which did take place - that part is not apocryphal) Kruschev dropped the propaganda and discussed the horrors inflicted on the Russian people and the Soviet Union by Stalin. Someone in the audience heckled Kruschev and yelled out something to the effect of "why didn't you do something then?"

Kruschev pounded the podium and called out angrily "who said that? Who said that?" There was no answer. Everyone sat silent.

Kruschev then leaned back a little and said calmly, "now you know why."

Fear of the government is real - they have the big guns, and until somebody ousts them, they have the "legitimate" power.

[ayergo]

Ah, lawyer speak.

*shakes his head*

[Mikayla]

Lawyer speak? I told a story - and I agreed with you. I don't get the "lawyer speak" comment.

[NickD]

Lawyer speak? I told a story - and I agreed with you. I don't get the "lawyer speak" comment.

I can't understand a word you are saying with all that lawyer speak!

[Stormseeker]

A lot of people are like that. I think the case will just hurt the lower people at beoing.(if stocks fall then jobs are cut). I do think that boeing is covered under the immunity because they are hired by the goverment.

[Valdimir]

If some mooks in suits from the government showed up at your place, showed you some pictures of your family/home to disturb you and asked for some simple help, i'm sure that 99% of people would buckle. There are some extraordinary people who have resisted despite direct threats to their life from the CIA, but humans will be human.

You watch too much TV, my friend...

Funny how the US government can't get the most basic things right, but they still get accused of covering up Roswell, hiring the mafia to kill JFK, and taking unsuspecting Boeing pilots from their homes at gunpoint in the middle of the night to help kidnap foreign nationals.

[ayergo]

Actually i don't watch any television. I read a lot.

I was talking more recently of the strong arm cases against collegues of mine in the tech industry for the AT&T internet wiresplitting and the "Titan Rain" hacking that the man lost his security clearance and job after helping out the FBI.

There's another case as well where a man directly had his life threatened as well, trying to find it.

I'm not saying they're doing massive coverups or anything rediculous. I'm just saying that there are a lot of jerks out there with power. Sometimes they work for big governement institutions and use that power inappropriately to force what they want.

[MorbidKate]

But I disagree that Boeing's employees deserve to be drug into the mud because of what Georgie and the CIA did.

Heh. Take a gander at the Boeing unit that's being sued:

http://www.jeppesen.com/wlcs/index.jsp

Then, take a read through the black ops arm of Boeing:

http://www.boeing.com/phantom/pw_about.html

Granted, not nearly as famous as the Skunk Works over at Lockheed Martin both do have VERY close ties to the CIA and various covert arms of the military. There is no debate about that.

It's important to note that Boeing wasn't forced into ANYTHING but were in fact partners, as they are in many special projects along with many other companies with inside ties to the US government.

Kate