Amnesty attacks US over abuses

[mxlm]

A frightening strain of evil--and I do mean that--has infected mainstream American politics. All this 'torture 'em, double gitmo, do whatever it takes, not-torture-but-enhanced-interrogation-techniques' stuff--this is evil.

Period.

And it's rather amusing that those most concerned with morality--the RWA--seem to be those most infected by it.

EDIT: incidentally, you all know that torture's unreliable, right? So says the FBI and MI.

More, it should be pretty obvious that reacting symmetrically in an asymmetric conflict is a Bad Idea.

Even if the torture of prisoners has benefits to America, it has costs. Those costs outweigh the benefits--losing the information war (i.e., PR) is far, far more important than whatever bits of intel might be extracted via torture.

[Nekulor]

A frightening strain of evil--and I do mean that--has infected mainstream American politics. All this 'torture 'em, double gitmo, do whatever it takes, not-torture-but-enhanced-interrogation-techniques' stuff--this is evil.

Period.

And it's rather amusing that those most concerned with morality--the RWA--seem to be those most infected by it.

EDIT: incidentally, you all know that torture's unreliable, right? So says the FBI and MI.

More, it should be pretty obvious that reacting symmetrically in an asymmetric conflict is a Bad Idea.

Even if the torture of prisoners has benefits to America, it has costs. Those costs outweigh the benefits--losing the information war (i.e., PR) is far, far more important than whatever bits of intel might be extracted via torture.

MXLM, its not torture, its PUNISHMENT. I said it before and I again reiterate, if a man kills an innocent, he deserves death. An eye for an eye. Self defense is fine, but I will NOT stand for the rights of murderous bastards on a religious jaunt. They have only my contempt. If every fascist islamic state fell into a coup and was replaced by bloody revolution with a fair government, I'd cheer and drink champagne in the streets.

I don't care if torture is ineffective, the bastards deserve what they get. Yes, I'm vitriolic, Yes, I show a deep-seeded hatred and loathing for these people, and yes, I am 200% fine with a rationalized hatred of religious zealots from the middle east who preach the destruction of my nation and way of life. I truly feel for the Muslims whose beliefs have been butchered by these pigs. I'm surprised the conservative Muslims don't take them out of power themselves, defiling a peaceful god and prophet like they do.

and to Roktu's post, I believe it was, if a Christian militant attacked Iranian innocents, I'd be just as morally outraged about that.

I am being very callous about this. However, its hard to care for people who deserve nothing but death for their crimes.Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a little callous disregard for their safety and health is justified.

Mxlm, to your last point, I have come to discount the opinions of most other nations' feelings towards us politically, and the opinion of the United Nothing as a whole. When the EU is overrun by terrorist cells, or when Iran nukes the hell out of the civilized world, you all can come crawling back to us and tell us we were right. Most other nations are playing the same damned appeasement card of the 30's, as a second ideological incarnation of Hitler, albeit in Muslim form, takes power in Iran.

Oh, but I'm sorry, that's not important. Its making sure the international media likes us here that is the true heart of international matters. I forgot, apparently I was too busy "supporting evil".

The ends justify the means, in my opinion.


and OT,
The smith quote in your sig, while notable, could itself be debated. Why should the rich support the poor? If you have earned money, why should you be FORCED in taxes to pay for the expenses of a homeless person or random vagrant? I don;t believe in propping up those who can't care for themselves economically, unless they are disabled or otherwise unable to work.

[Swift]

MXLM, its not torture, its PUNISHMENT. I said it before and I again reiterate, if a man kills an innocent, he deserves death. An eye for an eye. Self defense is fine, but I will NOT stand for the rights of murderous bastards on a religious jaunt. They have only my contempt. If every fascist islamic state fell into a coup and was replaced by bloody revolution with a fair government, I'd cheer and drink champagne in the streets.

Think about the outrage you felt when you saw pictures of people in the middle east celebrating when the twin towers collapsed. Yeah, that is exactly the feeling the non western world would feel towards you. You are sick, sadistic and hypocritical. You should not be allowed to taste the freedoms that democracy gives us with such extreme views, yet the beauty of democracy is that despite your abhorrent views, you are free to express them. Certainly not something i would ever trade to have someone in charge that held the views you do.

Your also pathetically blind if you think America is free of terrorist sleeper cells.

Disgusting.

[paazin]

EDIT: incidentally, you all know that torture's unreliable, right? So says the FBI and MI.

But it sure as hell feels good.

[Mulu]

I am being very callous about this. However, its hard to care for people who deserve nothing but death for their crimes.

What crimes? The vast majority of detainees at Gitmo, Iraq and in rendition sites are "suspected" terrorists only. Many have been released unconditionally, one was prosecuted and sentanced to 9 months of jail after 5 years of illegal detention. One interrogator recently back from Iraq stated that 90 - 95% of the people held in detention are innocent and know nothing about the insurgency or terrorism.

It was all bullshit. And that’s for an entire year of interrogating thousands of prisoners at Abu Ghraib. They got nothing out of that place. That’s not just my assessment—you can talk to anybody I worked with over there. The main reason for that is because 90 or 95 percent of the people we got had nothing to do with the insurgency.

Confessions of a Torturer. (Do read this article, it's very informative).

Gitmo in particular has become a tremendous problem as the vast majority of detainees there can't be charged with any crimes since we have no evidence they committed any, but their home countries won't take them back, so now we're stuck with them and they're stuck in a limbo where they won't be charged but they can't be released. If you knew the full extent of what the Bushies have been up to, you wouldn't be parading your vitriol for ethnic Middle Easterners so much. There are certainly many terrorists out there, and they deserve moral punishment (not the 4th stage of moral reasoning eye for an eye you're talking about), but the people we have locked up by and large are not terrorists. They have the misfortune of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Torturing the innocent, even under the most whacked out justifications, is criminal. As Amnesty correctly pointed out. It's also morally wrong, or evil to put it bluntly. Torturing criminals isn't much better. America faces a great challenge, defeat the terrorists without becoming them. So far we seem to be failing that challenge.

[Swift]

I am being very callous about this. However, its hard to care for people who deserve nothing but death for their crimes.

What crimes? The vast majority of detainees at Gitmo, Iraq and in rendition sites are "suspected" terrorists only. Many have been released unconditionally, one was prosecuted and sentanced to 9 months of jail after 5 years of illegal detention. One interrogator recently back from Iraq stated that 90 - 95% of the people held in detention are innocent and know nothing about the insurgency or terrorism.

Showing just how flimsy the case against him was, David Hicks took a plea deal that saw him get just under 7 years jail, backdated to include the 5 years already done, ensuring he only had 9 months left to do, and including conditions that he did not talk about it. It was basically a get out of jail free card to ensure he did not embarrass the US, their pathetically biased military tribunal system or what he endured during his time locked up. Up until a month or so before his trial, he maintained (and his father still maintains) that he was innocent and that he had been tortured and abused. His father has made the claim that after so long, he had finally broken and simply wanted to get out of there and get home, hence the plea deal.

If this man is the dangerous terrorist the US has maintained he is, why did they let him off to cheaply?

[Veilan]

MXLM, its not torture, its PUNISHMENT.

Uhm, torture is not even considered as punishment by the most vocal proponents of it. They are torturing suspects, to ascertain whether they are guilty or not and to obtain additional information. They are not yet proven guilty, so how can they be punished? It isn't punishment. And torturing someone convicted of a crime would be rather pointless, wouldn't it? Oh... apart from giving you that fluffy cozy feeling of revenge.

Seriously, noone says anything's wrong with appropriate punishment, but torturing someone because he happens to have an olive skin and is named Ali? It's just a desperate lashing out due to fear. America's not invulnerable, neither physically nor morally, and I can certainly understand how that causes hatred out of the sudden fear for a generation of people who grew up believing they are the greatest people in the world. It has happened before, after all.

[Nekulor]

I still say that Amnesty is way off base with this one. Yes, I agree with the first two, Russia is terrible on human rights with a semi-oligarchy corporate police state coming to power there, and the second nation was generally spot on as well, but putting America 3rd in terms of world Civil Rights and Liberties violations ABOVE NK AND IRAN is simply whacked out. Prove to me we are worse than Iran, and I'll change my mind. Prove it, I challenge you to do so, because I in no way can find ways we are worse then Amadinejhad.

However, no argument from anyone is going to change my mind on the interrogation and torture of detainees. I don't care what the military does to or with them, as long as it never sees the light of day with the international media. I don't understand how any of you expect me to care for people who I have no reason to show compassion towards. The only thing I have in common with most of them is that we follow the same god (god and allah are one in the same) and we both happen to be human. I don't care for people who have perverted a faith to such an extent.

If I went strictly by my religious beliefs, I know I should forgive them, but I find it extremely hard to forgive people who would rather strap a bomb to a bus while I'm on it and detonate it while I'm listening to my iPod. This is WAR people. War is ugly, people die. There are casualties in any war, and sometimes you have to weigh the costs and the goals and move on, even when those costs may be steep. Al Queda, Hamas, Hezbollah and Ansar al Islam do not negotiate with western society. They HATE western society. I'm not about to forgive someone who wants to see me and my countrymen push up flowers as they erect a new global empire returning us to a similar time when like when Xerxes oppressed half of the ancient world.

I know I'm a far right nut when it comes to the global war on terror. I've acknowledged this to friends and family alike. I know I'm extreme, you don't need to tell me that, however, I honestly and fervently believe that my nation needs to do whatever it takes to stop these people, to preserve our way of life. We walk a thin line between fighting them and becoming them, I know this, but I honestly believe that most of the extremists understand nothing but violence and brutality. I don't exactly see Osama on the daily show suggesting compromise and political change to work out our differences, do you? I see his people beheading citizens of America, Israel, The European Union and, rarely, various Asian nations. Some of these people have been there to help the sick and the poor, yet the outrage only grows when its US troops abusing detainees. To me, it feels like the terrorists get away with murder, but we can't play by their rules because the damn Geneva Accords get in the way every time we go a bit outside the norm. We can't have people like Sherman in command now, because total war has been defined as unadulterated barbarism. Well, sometimes you need a little barbarism to make a point. Hitler learned the meaning of war when we bombed his ass back to the stone age in world war 2, I don't see why a little tough love now would be such a terrible thing.

Thusly, my conclusion is:
1) Politicians need to stop fighting wars, leave that to the soldiers.
2) Let the military handle tactics like they should. Military maneuvers are not elements of political policy.
3) Tell the international rights organizations like AI and their allies to shove it. I'm tired of our policy decisions being influenced by people who have no stake in our government or our country. If they don't like how we do things, shove off and leave us alone.
4) Do what it takes to win. Winning a war isn't a popularity contest. War is ugly. If war wasn't ugly it would be called something else. You fight wars to defend your country or stop a threat that is growing in another part of the world, not to be crowned Miss Universe by the United Nations Council on Being a Pansy. War is won with blood, sweat and tears, not by playing whack-a-mole because congress says you have to.

[paazin]

Thusly, my conclusion is:
1) Politicians need to stop fighting wars, leave that to the soldiers.

Yeah, I'm also rather pissed about how Rumsfeld and the rest of the Bush administration sorta 'hijacked' the pentagon to bend to their whims.

2) Let the military handle tactics like they should. Military maneuvers are not elements of political policy.

Same as above.

3) Tell the international rights organizations like AI and their allies to shove it. I'm tired of our policy decisions being influenced by people who have no stake in our government or our country. If they don't like how we do things, shove off and leave us alone.

Fine idea - let's withdraw from the UN, WTO, WB, the mess of alphabet soup; let those assholes deal with that crap without our help and see how they like it.

4) Do what it takes to win. Winning a war isn't a popularity contest. War is ugly. If war wasn't ugly it would be called something else. You fight wars to defend your country or stop a threat that is growing in another part of the world, not to be crowned Miss Universe by the United Nations Council on Being a Pansy. War is won with blood, sweat and tears, not by playing whack-a-mole because congress says you have to.

Perfectly stated. We have to be firm, determined and, above all else, keep in mind the sacrifices for our final goal and victory; we need to be as cold as ice when the situation requires it. In such a war which we're involved in now, there are no true civilians.

[Nekulor]

Correct paazin, because our guys on the ground can't tell if the man on the side of the road with a backpack nowadays is a suicide bomber or a man who simply enjoys hiking. The lack of this war having a solid national base makes it difficult to fight, unpopular to continue, and even more difficult to direct because there is no "physical" indicator of progress as we are not defending or conquering towns/cities. Everything is the front line in the war on terror. As long as you are in nations where there is fighting, you find yourself on the front line. This puts civilians and aid workers, as well as soldiers, at risk.

[Swift]

lawl.

So if doing "whatever it takes to preserve our way of life" includes doing things that makes your country no better than the enemy they are fighting, thats all choice is it?

What a fucking crock.

[Stormseeker]

There is a difference in being guilty and not having enough evidence to prosecute, all you have to do is point toward the O.J. case.
I have no doubt that there are some people down there that was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. But come on, what they are experiencing in gitmo is just a longer version of a college hazing.

[Grand Fromage]

However, no argument from anyone is going to change my mind on the interrogation and torture of detainees.

At least you admit you're an irrational fool.

But come on, what they are experiencing in gitmo is just a longer version of a college hazing.

Are you fucking kidding me?

[Nekulor]

GF, sometimes you need the irrational fools like me to balance out the irrational fools on the other side. I am simply a method of balance in the universe, my views balance out the crazy far left people.

[paazin]

However, no argument from anyone is going to change my mind on the interrogation and torture of detainees.

At least you admit you're an irrational fool.

But come on, what they are experiencing in gitmo is just a longer version of a college hazing.

Are you Ƥøا kidding me?

pfft, come on. no way in hell could that be defined as torture

it's not as if the same interrogation techniques, such as waterboarding, were used in the past as torture in Nazi Germany by convicted war criminals...

Oh, wait.