Oh Flowers of Stoland

[Twin Axes]

And through most of the 17th century we held many provinces in Northern Germany. There's a German nursery rhyme from that time that threatens children with being taken by "the Swede". We been messing with people long time.

Being half English, I get to share in the British Imperial guilt too, double whammy!

[Rumple C]

Don't go Orangetree. I'll miss you. (This must be how England feels)

[Veilan]

Oh yes. Back in the days, a "Schwedentrank" ("swedish draught") was rather unpleasant. Nowadays, it's just unaffordable due to their socialist taxes . As for Schleswig and Holstein, serves you right - console yourself that it made Danish an official language here. Danish, yes - historic payback for Einarr Tambarskjelve?

Anyway I resent the fact to be lumped in with the seditionsts by orangetree! I stand with my English cousins. If Hialmar is reviving the Scottish-French alliance, then I point to the Prussian-English one, which through its embrace of Protestantism ushered in the modern age. Confusticate and bebother you, you vile papists - and confusion to Napoleon!

Hialmar's utterings especially have made it clear that the French would invade by the Horse Guard's Arch the moment the English ever stopped posting a watch there. Thought the Chunnel was a project of integration? Hah. It was built because the French realised how futile any thought of invasion by sea was.

Now, hand back the Elsäss (l'Alsace) and undo the forceful francophonisation of its inhabitants, as well as erase France's colonial history, and I just might allow you to claim the higher ground instead of just assuming your support is due to England's usual enemies once again allying .



Most amusing thread in ALFA in a while! I would prefer the UK to stay intact, balkanisation rarely leads to good things, but I have not moved there in time to get a vote, so, eh. They will figure it out for themselves, as all people should have a right to, even if it turns out to be a mistake.

Cheers,

[Twin Axes]

Don't go Orangetree. I'll miss you. (This must be how England feels)

Yes, don't leave because of this OT. You are a valuable member of this community and fun to play with. I don't think anyone here hates the UK. It is possible to strongly disagree with some of a country's policies without hating the country as a whole. For the record, personally don't have an informed opinion about this particular issue.

If you are burnt out and need a break, that's a different matter. I've been hovering close to that line myself for a while.

Oh yes. Back in the days, a "Schwedentrank" ("swedish draught") was rather unpleasant. Nowadays, it's just unaffordable due to their socialist taxes

Nothing gets between a Swede and his drink.

[Heero]

Nothing gets between a Swede and his drink.

Save maybe a good sauna, but I reckon this probably applies more to the northern Swedes rather than the more Danish-like south such as Gutenborg.

[Zelknolf]

Hialmar's utterings especially have made it clear that the French would invade by the Horse Guard's Arch the moment the English ever stopped posting a watch there. Thought the Chunnel was a project of integration? Hah. It was built because the French realised how futile any thought of invasion by sea was.

So... should I be assassinating an Austrian archduke?

I'm a little confused about what my role is here.

[loulabelle]

Being half English, I get to share in the British Imperial guilt too, double whammy!

Hahaha, am fully English and bear no guilt over the actions of my ancestors because I was not involved/born/responsible. Srsly, why is this a thing?

RE Scotland, don't really care (sorry) ;-f

[Twin Axes]

Being half English, I get to share in the British Imperial guilt too, double whammy!

Hahaha, am fully English and bear no guilt over the actions of my ancestors because I was not involved/born/responsible. Srsly, why is this a thing?

RE Scotland, don't really care (sorry) ;-f

It's not a thing, it was a joke.

[Galadorn]

reads thread again...

still no mention of orcs or 10' rooms with a chest in the middle...

meh

[Rumple C]

Scottish chests are the best.

[Hialmar]

Bah we'll see what they decide.

I don't hate English people (except when they are on a rugby field with their white and red shirts but that's another story).
It's just that I love Scotland and it's people. So I just want them to get freedom if they want to.

Looks like it's not the time if we have to believe current polls.
Nevermind, I'll still support them with my money when I go there for vacations.
I'll just have to refrain shooing away Edward's soldiers but I guess they are all rotting anyway...

Oh and you didn't conquer the whole world we had a good share of it and we enlightened/exploited them as well.
Here in France if you mention the enlightened part you are considered a racist however.
Not sure about Britain...

Edit: I forgot to answer Veilan's thing about Alsace. I'm all for it to be free as well. I'm not even French. I am half Occitan and half Catalan so I don't really care if France falls apart. Well it is already falling apart because of the nitwits who are governing us so...

[causk]

Interesting times. Looking at it with my econ glasses this seems like a really really bad idea. There is way too much uncertainty about EU membership, currency and the unentanglement of governance. And its not like these things will get negotiated without spite. The track record for state independance without (civil) war or collapse of government is probably pretty slim. I sure wouldnt bet on Scots being better off economicly within two decades. But at least public frustration/outrage gets settled one way or the other and just maybe politics can move on to focusing on solutions.
The most amusing thing for me is the sudden reversal of roles for UK politicans. Just when they were about to embark on a course of populist outrage about EU straightjacked regulation and demand to renegotiate stuff that is not really negotiable, they are forced to take the opposite position in their domestic affairs. I wonder if any cognitive dissonance will show.
For EU politics a yes vote is probably pretty scary too. It might mean RUK is less likely to stay with the programm or with much reduced influence. This means France , Germany and Italy will be more influencial, none of which inspire me with confidence.
Im not even sure if i should be glad that there is a vote at all. Self determination as a path to peace has a pretty lousy track record in the 19th century at least in Central Europe. And Ukraine+Russia seems to show again that defining a state around a cultural, ethnic group has some ugly implciations.

[Rumple C]

There are plenty of borders that could be redrawn for the benefit of all. If Crimea identifies itself as Russian, then why shouldn't they have that choice as a region? There is a large chunk of Kurds in Iraq, Iran, turkey, and Syria who have been clamoring for their own state for a long time. They deserve it. If enough of Tibet is still Tibetan (doubtful now) then restore the country and so on and so forth. Would stop a lot of cultural vs nation struggles and bloodshed. (See poor Tamils driven into the sea in search for self determination)

(But yeah, outside of opportunities like the one given to Scotland, govts usually maintain a death grip on borders so not much hope)

[causk]

The problem with voting on borders is the problem with voting on anything. What do you do with minorities and how are their rights preserved. There are more than russians living in crimea and their potential loss could be quite larger than the gain of the majority, if you can even consider those kind of arithmetrics valid at all. The Soviets were quite drastic in their resettlement of groups they considered problematic and settled ethnic Russians in the freed up space. And of course they are not the only ones that employ(ed) such tactics, but i think it remains debateable if that should be considered. Borders are hard to draw in a way that let only people that want to live in a state together actually achieve that. What sort of majority rule should be required is quite uncertain aswell. Constitutional changes in most matured government forms require alot more than 51 % representation or votes, but sometimes the bar is placed so high its not possible at all.

Once you center the notion of a state around an ethnic group, culture or religion you open pandora's box for populist arguments for expansive and aggressive politics. History is littered with examples and the only way these sort of problems get solved that way is violence. The problem with many of the places you mentioned is that there are conflicting visions about who belongs into what state. You cant really vote on that or negotiate those conflicts away. The loser are usually armed and too much is at stake for them so theyll fight. Once you get to the state where everyone sees "us vs them" everywhere, its hard to find any compromises. I think the primary failure in iraq and syria is a regime in power that greatly favors one group over others. I think its pretty hard to argue either that this happened by accident.

Anyways, i digressed quite a bit. I just dont think self determination votes do much for a peacefull future.
I dont mean to say anything unkind about the Scots and their cause. I just wished these kind of movements were more focused on a political vision and not on the usual group identity polemics. Aka we want a referendum for a x-style state, instead of "down with the imperial oppressors, Xland only for Xs, etc). My prefered outcome is greater federalization, but sadly even when places start out that way, there seems to be quite alot of momentum for centralization. I blame politican's need to cover their arse with someone else to blame if things go south.

[Veilan]

So it's a no anyway.

I think causk has much of a point. Nation-states, while being abstract constructs, actually have one very distinct advantage: precisely that abstract nature. It means everybody can be included as long as they hold an abstract and arbitrary distinction of "citizenship". Sure, nation states can, were, and will be hijacked by more "nativist" ideas of ethnicity, religion or language, but they don't have to be, as many successful nations (e.g. England - "the English air is too pure for any slave to breathe", United States - "give me your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free" and Prussia - "everyone shall be happy according to their own fashion") have shown.

Once you divide along hard traits and lines, you are immediately more exclusive and foster group think in a more negative way (granted, nation-states also usually have an "us vs. them" where other nations are concerned, which is just basic psychology - and can be combatted by the trick of larger, more or less loose unions as well as harmless outlets such as footie), where a more benign state would harness that mechanism for something positive - "real" differences get subsumed under the abstract and malleable national identity. Of course, ideally we would all find common ground in being human, but that is just not how we work.

Furthermore, you would open all gates for atomisation. For a German example, Bavaria (our Texas, so to say) has some small populist movement to break away from Germany (one argument seriously is not having to pay for defense obligations within Germany and the EU...). Next up, the Franconians, who are predominantly Protestant and sport the house of Hohenzollern in one of their provincial flags, might secede from Bavaria. But then, perhaps middle Franconia might want to secede because they have historical religious differences and are somewhat closer to Bavaria... and next up, you could have cities, communities and street-by-street pandaemonium.

Self-determination is great, and I think there is a logical limit in size and complexity to a nation state that still affords the right to self-determination and assures that every part of the whole gets a fair say in forging that unifying national identity. Going the way of the Balkan, especially if mostly based on identity politics, is probably not a good idea - and it seems Scotland just agreed.

Cue Kissinger hawking another round of nostalgic mourning for the Westphalian peace. Scary is that he's starting to look like he was around for it...

...oh, and someone play the Flowers of the Forest for Hialmar .