After trying to follow this discussion, what I really need is a drink. But definitely not a toke since it has been decreed that drugs are bad!Veilan wrote: I also still posit that a tripper chart is more urgently needed, a claim that has yet to be refuted.
The tripping chart.
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Wild Wombat
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Re: The tripping chart.
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NWN2 (Failed Experiment): Muir Cheartach, AKA The Pale Faced Pie Man
R.I.P.: Croaker Lyosbarr, Knight of Yartar, Lord of Lhuvenhead (NWN1)
"In no uncertain terms, i am adamantly opposed to any ingame mechanics that penalize players for wanting to meet up with other players, when their goal is to roleplay." - White Warlock
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Re: The tripping chart.
I still think its not a proper 'alfa' chart, unless a roll of 1 kills you then and there. 
Re: The tripping chart.
Ok, I know you guys are just amusing yourselves with this reciprocal trolling, but throwing these fallacy accusations around is a pet peeve of mine 
Bringing up logical fallacies in regular discourse is quite often done out of ignorance or an attempt to troll by beating up straw men, because only rarely do people actually mean to express formal rigor. Language is an informal logic, and must be translated into a formal logic for these sorts of formal arguments to have any context. Anyone who commonly tries to translate language into formal logic or something approximating it (i.e., software engineers) knows its really hard because common language is really bad at expressing logic. To do it you almost always need the input of the person who wrote the language. Typically a lot of input, and even then there are mistakes and ambiguities. D&D is nice to code against because many of these issues have already been worked out.
If you don't have the author's input you're just assigning meaning to their words, and some things will get lost in translation. Its very easy to assign meaning that builds a straw man and shows the other party to be incorrect.
For example, if Veilan says "Anyone using a trip chart is not trying to portray a deep character", he probably doesn't mean exactly what he said, which is equivalent to "everyone using a trip chat is not trying to portray a deep character", or trip → ¬deep (which is clearly invalid). He probably means "anyone using a trip chart is probably not trying to portray a deep character", or p(deep | trip) < 0.5 (which is much more reasonable). Yes you can say they should have structured their original assertion more rigorously, but then you're arguing semantics and meaning (likely the proper context for the debate), not logic.
When people say "if X, then Y" they very rarely mean "for all X, Y"; assuming otherwise is disingenuous.
We don't try to prove many things by formal logic because its often really, really hard. All of the world's software is verified by automated testing, not formal logic, because its really hard to use formal logic to verify software programs. The tools to do so are only just now becoming available. I've constructed some proofs of correctness in the language I work in (Scala), and it is very hard and limited in usefulness.
/rant
Bringing up logical fallacies in regular discourse is quite often done out of ignorance or an attempt to troll by beating up straw men, because only rarely do people actually mean to express formal rigor. Language is an informal logic, and must be translated into a formal logic for these sorts of formal arguments to have any context. Anyone who commonly tries to translate language into formal logic or something approximating it (i.e., software engineers) knows its really hard because common language is really bad at expressing logic. To do it you almost always need the input of the person who wrote the language. Typically a lot of input, and even then there are mistakes and ambiguities. D&D is nice to code against because many of these issues have already been worked out.
If you don't have the author's input you're just assigning meaning to their words, and some things will get lost in translation. Its very easy to assign meaning that builds a straw man and shows the other party to be incorrect.
For example, if Veilan says "Anyone using a trip chart is not trying to portray a deep character", he probably doesn't mean exactly what he said, which is equivalent to "everyone using a trip chat is not trying to portray a deep character", or trip → ¬deep (which is clearly invalid). He probably means "anyone using a trip chart is probably not trying to portray a deep character", or p(deep | trip) < 0.5 (which is much more reasonable). Yes you can say they should have structured their original assertion more rigorously, but then you're arguing semantics and meaning (likely the proper context for the debate), not logic.
When people say "if X, then Y" they very rarely mean "for all X, Y"; assuming otherwise is disingenuous.
We don't try to prove many things by formal logic because its often really, really hard. All of the world's software is verified by automated testing, not formal logic, because its really hard to use formal logic to verify software programs. The tools to do so are only just now becoming available. I've constructed some proofs of correctness in the language I work in (Scala), and it is very hard and limited in usefulness.
/rant
Re: The tripping chart.
sorry Ronan I don't care, I judge statements by their meaning, ascribing intended meaning to everything means I have to assume things.
What I also don't care for is piling onto a player who posted something they built and telling them they suck etc. which seems a regular pass-time around here.
Use the chart if you like, if you don't, don't use it.
What I also don't care for is piling onto a player who posted something they built and telling them they suck etc. which seems a regular pass-time around here.
Use the chart if you like, if you don't, don't use it.
On playing together: http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307 ... 6efFP.html
Useful resource: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
On bad governance: "I intend to bring democracy to this nation, and if anybody stands in my way I will crush him and his family."
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Useful resource: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
On bad governance: "I intend to bring democracy to this nation, and if anybody stands in my way I will crush him and his family."
You're All a Bunch of Damn Hippies
Re: The tripping chart.
This tripping chart is ruining ALFA. How does it feel to be the person who destroyed ALFA, MaskedIllusion?
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JonnyJerny
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Re: The tripping chart.
Holy shit
[22:46] <Ronan_> I once stabbed a man in Reno just to watch him bleed.
Re: The tripping chart.
Castano, I did not think anyone was being serious here. But I suppose Germans are always serious.
Face it Jern, the level of irrelevance in this thread is too high for even you to handle. You couldn't run with the big dogs, so stay off the porch.JonnyJerny wrote:Holy shit
Re: The tripping chart.
I thought they were being serious. I guess I got trolled by the best 
On playing together: http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307 ... 6efFP.html
Useful resource: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
On bad governance: "I intend to bring democracy to this nation, and if anybody stands in my way I will crush him and his family."
You're All a Bunch of Damn Hippies
Useful resource: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
On bad governance: "I intend to bring democracy to this nation, and if anybody stands in my way I will crush him and his family."
You're All a Bunch of Damn Hippies
Re: The tripping chart.
Amusement? In a hobby project?Ronan wrote:Ok, I know you guys are just amusing yourselves
Unfathomable.
The power of concealment lies in revelation.
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MaskedIllusion
- Staff Head - PR
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Re: The tripping chart.
*Tips hat* Had to be done sooner or later.Xanthea wrote:This tripping chart is ruining ALFA. How does it feel to be the person who destroyed ALFA, MaskedIllusion?
Current PC:
Pc 1: Kalavaria
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Past PCs: Astri, Navanna, Vess, Isett
<paazin_> I hate you.
Puny: I would stomp on a spider wearing my future babies face.
Boom: I hope he dies in a flying aids fire.
Pc 1: Kalavaria
Pc2: -
Retired PCs:Kyrinil, Isabella, Sayset, Iadeth, Araessa, Kalix Silvith
Past PCs: Astri, Navanna, Vess, Isett
<paazin_> I hate you.
Puny: I would stomp on a spider wearing my future babies face.
Boom: I hope he dies in a flying aids fire.