Battles?

[johnlewismcleod]

Since Tolkien's works predated D&D by some thirty years, aren't you all trying to pull the horse with the cart here?

*drops shovel and runs quickly away from hole*

[ElCadaver]

OK, OK. DONE TO DEATH

how about
The Thing



vs

Stone golem

[dergon darkhelm]

Thing

Name: Benjamin J. Grimm


The Thing, PL (CR?) 12

Str 40 [16] (+15), Dex 12 (+1), Con 40 [16] (+15), Int 12 (+1), Wis 13 (+1), Cha 15 (+2)

Skills: Bluff 4 (+6), Climb 0 (+9), Craft (mechanical) 4 (+5), Gamble 7 (+8), Intimidate 7 (+9), Knowledge (popular culture) 5 (+6), Knowledge (streetwise) 4 (+5), Knowledge (tactics) 4 (+5), Notice 4 (+5), Pilot 14 (+15), Profession (astronaut) 7 (+8), Profession (military pilot) 7 (+8), Sense Motive 4 (+5)

Feats: All-Out Attack, Attack Specialization (unarmed), Benefit (FF member), Benefit (wealth), Critical Strike, Endurance, Improved Block, Improved Critical (unarmed), Improved Grab, Improved Initiative, Improved Pin, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Renown 3, Seize Initiative, Startle, Takedown Attack, Taunt, Teamwork, Ultimate Save (Will)

Powers:

Density 6 (500 lbs, Extra: Continuous, Flaw: Permanent, Note: Traits derived from this power are already added to his other traits)
Enhanced Constitution 24
Enhanced Strength 24
Immovable 4
Impervious Toughness 12
Sensory Shield 2 (Auditory)
Super-Strength 9 (Heavy Load: 1600 tons, Power Feat: Groundstrike)
Combat: Attack +7 (+9 unarmed), Grapple +32, Damage +15 (unarmed), Defense +7 (+3 flat-footed), Knockback -18, Initiative +6

Saves: T Fortitude +15, Reflex +4, Will +8

Notes: The Thing is a more or less straightforward example of the Powerhouse archetype. Perhaps the only things that distinguish him from other Powerhouses are his fighting skills (represented by his collection of Combat Feats), and his expertise as one of the greatest pilots in the world.

STONE GOLEM
Stone Golem
Size/Type: Large Construct
Hit Dice: 14d10+30 (107 hp)
Initiative: –1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 26 (–1 size, –1 Dex, +18 natural),, touch 8, flat-footed 26
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+23
Attack: Slam +18 melee (2d10+9)
Full Attack: 2 slams +18 melee (2d10+9)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Slow
Special Qualities: Construct traits, damage reduction 10/adamantine, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to magic, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +4
Abilities: Str 29, Dex 9, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 1
Skills:
Feats:
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or gang (2–4)
Challenge Rating: 11
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 15–21 HD (Large); 22–42 (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —

This golem has a humanoid body made from stone. A stone golem is 9 feet tall and weighs around 2,000 pounds. Its body is frequently stylized to suit its creator. For example, it might look like it is wearing armor, with a particular symbol carved on the breastplate, or have designs worked into the stone of its limbs.

COMBAT
Stone golems are formidable opponents, being physically powerful and difficult to harm.

Slow (Su): A stone golem can use a slow effect, as the spell, as a free action once every 2 rounds. The effect has a range of 10 feet and a duration of 7 rounds, requiring a DC 17 Will save to negate. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A stone golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

A transmute rock to mud spell slows a stone golem (as the slow spell) for 2d6 rounds, with no saving throw, while transmute mud to rock heals all of its lost hit points.

A stone to flesh spell does not actually change the golem’s structure but negates its damage reduction and immunity to magic for 1 full round.

Thing is stronger and I think would win out even blow by blow. Add the fact that he's actually a very bright guy on the inside and I think the stone golem has real problems since the golem would be outsmarted.

The only downside in their head to head match up would be the golem having immunites to mind spells and such, whcih the thing wouldn't have. But seeing that I don't think the Stone Golem is going to be casting "dominate monster" too often, the thing doesn't have much to worry about .

[hollyfant]

If we base ourselves on the presumption Science = Magic, a golem would have little to fear from the Thing's supposed superiority though. And in a toe-to-toe slugout, it's damage reduction, immunity to criticals and lack of pain perception would win the day. I'd put my Electrum Pieces on the golem, unless the Thing can get its paws on an adamantium baseball bat.

[Mayhem]

Based on those M&M stats vs D&D stats, Ben can just pick up something weighing a thousand tons and toss it on top of the stone golem. Fight over.

[Mulu]

Wasnt the balrog a Maia that choose to manifest itself as such?

Ah, quite right. All the balrogs are corrupted Maiar, which just makes the analysis that much more difficult. Like Gandalf, only the balrog's physical body was slain in their battle. Looking it up, it gets worse: "Tolkien says of the Valar (including the Maiar) that they can change their shape at will, and move unclad in the raiment of the world, meaning invisible and without form." Meh, at that point they can do whatever the author wants them to be able to do, which is probably the point.

As for The Thing vs. a Stone Golem, yeah given that Golems require adamantine / magic weapons to be damaged (depending on game version), I'd say old Blue eyes is in for a bad time unless he has some barbarian/monk like skill that treats him as a magic weapon, or he gets ahold of an adamantine club (it does exist in Marvel Universe). Maybe he could use Wolverine's femur.

[Mayhem]

The thing can lift and throw vastly more than his physical size would indicate, wheras the Golem is limited to its base strength.

Thing could just grab the golem and lob it miles away.

[Voersaa]

Edit: Ups, didn't realize that we had moved on from the Gandalf thing.... (for some reason I thought there was only one page of this stuff)

Gandalf would win. He doesn't seem to play by permadeath rules.

Btw I always found it a bit lame that "evil" in LOTR was painted as "all powerful". In reality the good gyus had a handful of wizards that was at the same level of power as Sauron. And since the wizards had already been send to Middle Earth by the gods then it seems unlikely that those same gods would ever let Sauron take over.

Sauron was up shits creek right from the beginning. Those gay hobbits with their "we are so cute" pr stunt simply made a spin on things to make everyone think that they were the underdogs when in reality it was the other way around.

[Swift]

Wasnt the balrog a Maia that choose to manifest itself as such?

Ah, quite right. All the balrogs are corrupted Maiar, which just makes the analysis that much more difficult. Like Gandalf, only the balrog's physical body was slain in their battle. Looking it up, it gets worse: "Tolkien says of the Valar (including the Maiar) that they can change their shape at will, and move unclad in the raiment of the world, meaning invisible and without form."

In the Silmarillion it is stated that Morgoth, the most powerful of the gods and far more powerful than a Maiar lost his ability to change his shape at will, as a part of his power was distributed into all his creations and from the spreading corruption throughout the world, thereby permanently binding him to his physical form. Similarly Sauron, a Maiar, lost his ability to change his shape when his mortal form was destroyed with Numenor. It can be strongly hinted then that the Balrogs, chief servants of Morgoth in the First Age also lost their ability to shift form throughout the years as they grew ever more corrupted.

As to the previous match up, i put Gandalf ahead purely because he is Immortal. If his spirit were given free reign, there is simply no telling how powerful he would be.

Btw I always found it a bit lame that "evil" in LOTR was painted as "all powerful". In reality the good gyus had a handful of wizards that was at the same level of power as Sauron. And since the wizards had already been send to Middle Earth by the gods then it seems unlikely that those same gods would ever let Sauron take over.

Just how it was written. Eru Ilúvatar created the Valar, who each looked after their own things. Morgoth, the most powerful of all the Valar, had a share of all the other Valars powers. As he was the one that fell, that is why, at least in the first age, the evil was 'all powerful'. Looking to the second age, Sauron was only all powerful while he had the One ring (and even then his power was a mere shadow of Morgoth, being only a Maiar and servant). Come Lord of the Rings and the Third Age of the world, Sauron was only powerful because he still had the ringwraiths under his command and gathered enough evil men to his cause. The closer the hobbits got to mount doom, the more consumed with fear and doubt he became, to the point he was completely blinded to the world, consumed entirely by his search for the ring.

By the Third Age, it was the time for Men (Erus own creation) to rise, and Sauron was their problem to deal with. The Wizards instructions were to marshall the kingdoms of men to stand up against him, but were forbidden from actually directly taking action against him. The Wizards had tremendous power, but were not permitted to use them. So yes, the good guys had horribly powerful wizards, but all they essentially did was set things in motion and then try to control the course they took.