The Forgotten War

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ç i p h é r
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The Forgotten War

Post by ç i p h é r »

Anyone see the interview with Ambassador Crocker in Iraq? Very informative.

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/ ... ith_am.php

Notable snippets:
Murray: Does that mean that the January 1st deadline – how big a deal is the ending of the UN mandate which gives currently gives the US occupation powers in Iraq?

Crocker: It is important. Iraq has been the subject of a Chapter 7 resolution since 2003. In 2004, when an Iraqi government assumed responsibility, they continued under a Chapter 7 resolution, so the expiration of this resolution will mark a very important step in the history of a new Iraq. And things will be different.

We have to have a legal basis to operate here to do anything, whether it’s actually security operations or to train and equip [Iraqi forces], so there has to be a legal basis. The desire of the Iraqis is to move from the Security Council resolution to a bilateral agreement.

We’ve made very substantial progress, I think we’re getting to the endgame, but you don’t have an agreement until you have everything agreed and we’re not quite there yet. It is clear that this agreement is going to create a very different reality. It will affirm Iraqi sovereignty. In every respect in this agreement, Iraqi’s are controlling their own destiny in a way they don’t under the Security Council resolution, so it going to mark an important evolution in Iraq’s development as a state.
Murray: You arrived in Iraq as Ambassador in March of 2007; it’s now been about 18 months. If you were to rate Iraq right now compared to March 2007 or perhaps October 2006, rating that period perhaps as a 1, as a time of fear and loathing, versus where we are here today two years later, on a scale of 1 to 10, where do you think we are here in October 2008?

Crocker: If it’s a relative comparison, it’s well beyond 10. This is a transformed country since the time I’ve arrived. I will always remember my first visit to a Baghdad neighborhood as Ambassador. It was to Dora and the surge brigade had just moved in to the area. I’d been here in 2003 and lived here in the late 1970s, and walking through the streets of Dora a year and a half ago, it reminded me of Beirut in the 1980s, it was a war zone.

People were afraid to go out in the streets, to the big Dora market, which had only a dozen shops open, out of maybe 400. The residents were afraid to cross the bridge to go to the hospital because they thought the national police at the checkpoint would kill them because they were Sunnis. It was deeply depressing.

Dora is now utterly transformed. Not only are all 400 shops opened, the market has expanded well beyond that and during the commemoration of the birth of the last Shia Imam, tens of thousands of Iraqi Shia walked through Dora on their way to Karbala and were given food and drink by the Sunni residents. Contrast that to a time when if any Shia had tried to walk into Dora they wouldn’t have walked out, period. It’s that kind of transformation that is, to me, utterly striking.

That said, the threats are still there. Al Qaeda is diminished and in retreat, but not defeated. The Iranians clearly are trying to follow a Hezbollah model here as in Lebanon. The big Jaish al Mahdi militia model didn’t work for them. That is transforming into a non-militant organization but they are still working with Special Groups that are trained, equipped and directed by the Qods Force out of Tehran and the training is done by Lebanese Hezbollah.

So the Sunni extreme of al Qaeda, the Shia extreme of Hezbollah-like groups directed by the Qods Force represent real threats to this country and we and the Iraqis are going to have to be absolutely diligent in not letting up and tracking them down and eliminating them.


You have the challenge of services. A year ago, everybody was talking about security. Nobody worries much about security anymore in most of the country so now they’re all complaining about services. Where is the power, where is the water, where is the job opportunities and the government is going to have to step up to that? They are making progress but there is obviously a very long way to go.

And then there is the question of political evolution. There are lots of strains and pressures in this evolving system and how that evolution takes place is going to determine the future of the country. But there has been enormous progress -- coming back from Dora, putting my head on my desk, wishing I was back in Pakistan, from that moment I never would have hoped that Iraq would have come as far as it has in these 18 months, but there is still a long way to go, so we’re going to have to stay with this.
It is striking, to say the least, that there is virtually no coverage of Iraq in the news anymore given all the criticism of the war - including the reckless proclamation by Harry Reid that "the war is lost" - in the not so distant past. It's bad for the American psyche I think that we only ever hear about our failures and rarely, if ever, about our successes. Something needs to change.
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Post by fluffmonster »

the reason we don't hear about iraq is because of the economy. It really is just that simple.
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Post by MorbidKate »

What's more curious is that even Fox News barely covers the war in Iraq anymore. The reality is that war coverage will be toned down until after the election and even then attention will slowly shift towards Afghanistan/Pakistan where it should have been all along. The Repbublicans were beyond stupid not to expect Iran to do exactly what they've been doing and it all could have all been avoided.

The IRA was read the riot act after 911 and quickly moved towards a peace agreement to prevent it's destruction and there was never any evidence (besides the stuff manufactured by Bush and the man in the Iron Lung) to suggest that Iraq would have become more bold or actually try to restart any of it's programs that were abandoned after the first Gulf war.

Of course, I'm sure there are nutjobs like "Joe the plumber" who think the economic wreckage, mass deaths and severe injuries, including American soldiers was well worth it to bring "peace" to Iraq. Al-Qaeda only entered Iraq AFTER the Americans invaded and are now shifting back across the border into Pakistan to primarily go after Americans in Afghanistan.

So, in the end Bush invaded the one country in the region that could keep the lid on Iran and sided with Saudi & Pakistan, the two countries that have been sponsoring more terrorism than anyone else in the region. Brilliant!

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Post by danielmn »

Sorry.

The forgotten war is in Afghanistan Ci. That fact is just now comming back around to bite us in the ass.
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Post by ç i p h é r »

They are arguably both forgotten wars, but there has been more and more press coverage of Afghanistan, unsurprisingly, as things have gotten worse. Not so about Iraq where things continue to improve dramatically.

Bush was certainly wrong about the necessity of the Iraq war, and for that he will forever be remembered, but Democrats have been wrong on Iraq ever since, from preordaining the failure of the surge strategy to proclaiming to the world that the war was lost. Biden even claimed the surge strategy wouldn't work in Afghanistan in the VP debate, and now, as more attention shifts to the growing problem in Afghanistan, I'm seeing reports that the path to defeating a resurgent Taliban/Al Qaeda in Afghanistan will, not surprisingly, require the involvement of Afghan tribal leaders and a surge of troops. The central government in Kabul, despite all our efforts to date, is simply too corrupt and dysfunctional to adequately deal with the problem. Shocking.

That brings the total count of the number of times Democrats have been wrong on Afghan and Iraq war strategies to 3. Is it really any surprise that McCain, the only one of the 4 candidates with actual military service, has been right on identifying effective war strategies?
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Post by MorbidKate »

ç i p h é r wrote:They are arguably both forgotten wars, but there has been more and more press coverage of Afghanistan, unsurprisingly, as things have gotten worse. Not so about Iraq where things continue to improve dramatically.
You don't consider American deaths being newsworthy? Interesting. Best sweep that under the mat and focus on Iraq where in many instances the fighting has dropped due to cash payoffs not to attack. Think that is in any way a permanent solution? I think it'll take at least 10 years to see how Iraq plays out to fully calculate the blowback of the bogus invasion. Already we've seen how Iran has benefitted but what of Saudi, Pakistan & Afghanistan... the three countries Bush should have dealt with if this was really about 911?

Oh yes, and McCain has merely been voicing what all the Generals have been saying since this mess was back in the planning stage. With proper numbers from the get-go there would have been no need for a "surge" in the first place... or payoffs to assure the surge would be seen as a success ;)

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"We had gone in search of the American dream. It had been a lame f*ckaround. A waste of time. There was no point in looking back. F*ck no, not today thank you kindly. My heart was filled with joy. I felt like a monster reincarnation of Horatio Alger. A man on the move... and just sick enough to be totally confident." -- Raoul Duke.
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Post by ç i p h é r »

MorbidKate wrote:You don't consider American deaths being newsworthy?
How did you get that idea? I'm saying the news coverage goes away when things improve and that's not a good thing.
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Post by Veilan »

I don't think either war is forgotten. Both wars get headlines even here - mostly because of the national implications of course, as the majority of our own citizen are still very, very uncomfortable with sending troops abroad for more reasons than disdain of casualties - and I think you are giving the american people less credit than they deserve if you suggest either war is out of their public mind.

Admittedly, I'd have never thought I'd write something like that... :shock:
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Post by danielmn »

I have heard 20 too many times someone get Afghanistan confused with Iraq...almost as if Afghanistan was never invaded and our only war is in Iraq. Hell, our own leaders have gotten the two confused. I call Afghanistan the forgotten war because once the Iraq war started those soldiers were all but forgotten...and not just by the media. Air and ground support dropped dramatically and casualties rose due to combat support being brought out of Afghanistan and into Iraq. What had been a good mesh of air and ground superiority to start out with quickly turned into a footsoldiers war...medevacs went from 5 minutes away to an hour or more away. Arty shrinked in availability...so did air support....leaving the bulk of the war to be fought by ground troops after the Iraq war started. And that is the true cost of Iraq, the troops in Afghanistan having to pull more weight. They don't complain about it because it is their duty to be there, but the situation is a bit fubar.
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Post by hollyfant »

I thought Korea was the forgotten war. Remember Korea?
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Post by danielmn »

*looks around for Hawkeye* :P
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Post by jmecha »

Everytime someone finds out I was in the army they ask what Iraq was like, or what it was like to fight in Iraq, or they ask if I was ever in Iraq.

My answere is always "No, I was in that other war, the one in Afghanistan"
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Post by danielmn »

8) Me too J....me too.
Swift wrote: Permadeath is only permadeath when the PCs wallet is empty.
Zyrus Meynolt: [Party] For the record, if this somehow blows up in our faces and I die, I want a raise

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<danielmn>: Yes,
<danielmn>: Easily.

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Post by Stormseeker »

Trust me folks there are those of us out here that know the difference and never forget. Some of us are reminded every time we go to the V.A.
*grins* Just thought i would throw my 2 cents in.
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