Immigration.....

BalvinSlice · Post by **BalvinSlice** » Thu May 31, 2007 6:10 pm

OK, explain this one,

1) The current US unemployement is 4.5 % or 6.8 million.
Jobless Rates By Catagory:
* adult men (4.0 percent)
* adult women (3.8 percent)
* teenagers (15.3 percent)

2) Currently there are estimated over 12 million undocumented workers in the United States.

3) The US foriegn trade deficit is $63.9 billion

4) Every year US Companies move operations to foriegn countries for lower labor and operational costs.

5) Long term economic growth is dependant on three factors; consumer confidence, productivity, and population growth

So why is dramatically increasing the amount of legal immigration a bad thing? Why is making current undocumented workers wait 9 years and pay a fine a bad thing?

If the goal is border security, ask the Soviets and Israelis about how easy it is to keep people out or in?

dergon darkhelm · Post by **dergon darkhelm** » Thu May 31, 2007 6:53 pm

As long as I can find some guy to cut my lawn for $2 an hour I don't give a crap where he's from.

Nekulor · Post by **Nekulor** » Thu May 31, 2007 9:42 pm

We can't send them home at this point. That would be international relations suicide, no matter how much I wish we could. The best alternative is the current plan in congress to make them pay penalties to get green cards and become citizens. At least that makes them pay taxes, something that they currently do not do.

NickD · Post by **NickD** » Thu May 31, 2007 10:14 pm

I'll have to side with Zak on this one.

mxlm · Post by **mxlm** » Thu May 31, 2007 11:00 pm

The best alternative is the current plan in congress to make them pay penalties to get green cards and become citizens. At least that makes them pay taxes, something that they currently do not do.

Um. They're not going to pay taxes (income tax, at any rate) until they're citizens/have visas/whatever. And you want to make it harder for them to be able to pay taxes?

Rotku · Post by **Rotku** » Thu May 31, 2007 11:02 pm

Just dig a big sea between US and Mexico and fill it with killer crocs and poisonous sea snakes.

NESchampion · Post by **NESchampion** » Thu May 31, 2007 11:47 pm

Stormseeker · Post by **Stormseeker** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:57 pm

It does happen in the construction,farming, and service industry. The farmer quits paying the local boys to haul his hay because someone approaches him with a better deal from non english speaking folks.
In construction it is a english speaking guy being the front runner for a bunch of non english speaking folks, they get the bottom bid easily.
You even see it starting to pop up in some of the food processing plants.

Still i don't blame the illegals at all, hell i would travel to another country to provide a better life for my family. I do blame the folks that do this and the politicians that are in their pockets.(points to the clintons and tyson foods as a example)

BalvinSlice · Post by **BalvinSlice** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:20 pm

OK,

But what about companies that leave the country? Are they to blame as well? How do they compete with companies that use cheap overseas labor with no environmental or saftey protections (CHINA)?

Or what about small companies in the US that can't find labor? Even if you employed all of the current "unemployed" you will still have a shortfall of 6 million workers. Where do those jobs go?

Isnt better to have the jobs in the US? I realize $10-$12/hour jobs are not the long term goal, but those jobs create more jobs and so on. But everyyear, those jobs are leaving as well as the jobs at $20-$40/hour that support them.

((Why $10-12, I feel that if you pay less than that you have no right to complain about labor availablity... and I am complaining))

Stormseeker · Post by **Stormseeker** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:40 pm

lol well 10-12 here is the good paying job.(northern arkansas). I do blame the ones that move their industry over seas. I understand why the do it(the almighty dollar) but see it as (searches for the word) unhonorable? disloyal? to the american people and ideals.
The only way that usa companies can compete is by having better quality of service and goods. That is why if i could afford it i would own a new toyota truck. Their tolorances on the engine specs are better than the big three. lol even with the parts and trucks that are built here in the usa (by toyota).

*shrugs* the rest is to far out of my knowledge with the amount of coffee i have not drank this morning *grins*.

Mulu · Post by **Mulu** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:38 pm

It would be easy enough to penalize employers for hiring illegals, and that would end the demand, thus ending the supply. What I've seen in the last 20 years is mostly increased profits by using immigrant labor or outsourcing, not significantly better prices for Americans. In other words, the difference in costs goes into the pockets of the big boys. This seems especially true in construction, where building prices increase at a much greater rate than inflation, despite reduced regulations and cheaper labor. It's all about the greed.

At this point the money interests are so strong and entrenched that nothing is going to change. The US is in decline, simple as that, due to a combination of corporations abandoning it for cheaper labor markets / lower taxes / lack of regulations, and govt policies that make it easy to do so and that give our public wealth to defense and energy companies, who are also headquartered overseas. And those are largely Republican policies, of course. It really all boils down to the greed of those in power, who care little about the rest of humanity. It's robber barons on a much larger scale. As a species, we have essentially become Ferengi.

BalvinSlice · Post by **BalvinSlice** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:20 pm

Greed is not the problem. It is the government trying to appease two groups (corporations and union / blue collar voters) with a solution that hurts both. That is to restrict labor while allowing transfering of production to foriegn countries.

The same greed that exists today had the opposite effect over the previous 150 years of the country's existence. The US increased immigration and imposed tariffs / taxes on both transferring to foriegn countries and importing from foriegn countries.

So why not demand higher tariffs on imported goods instead of WTO and Free Trade Agreements for countries that operate at below environmental, human rights, and labor standards? And at the same time dramatically increase the amount of available Labor through legal immigration? Could it be that easy?

Who besides the Chinese would argue with that?

Nekulor · Post by **Nekulor** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:56 am

I still say we simply take the illegals currently here, get them in the system, and get them started toward citizenship, with the fines and taxes. That way, then can become legitimate members of this society. We can't do much about the cultural impact though...oh well, I like Mexican food anyway. America, tierra de los gratis (probably too literal a translation there), casero del bravo.

*sigh* I'm going to miss our culture...

You think I'm kidding, at current estimated rates,Mexican immigrants will overtake current minorities and even begin to rival the majority, making them the majority. I have the link to the source around here somewhere...Here.

That's the link from CIS. Those are some worrying statistics. Our infrastructure can't support that many impoverished people right now.

NESchampion · Post by **NESchampion** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:25 pm

Nekulor wrote:I still say we simply take the illegals currently here, get them in the system, and get them started toward citizenship, with the fines and taxes. That way, then can become legitimate members of this society. We can't do much about the cultural impact though...oh well, I like Mexican food anyway. America, tierra de los gratis (probably too literal a translation there), casero del bravo.

*sigh* I'm going to miss our culture...

You think I'm kidding, at current estimated rates,Mexican immigrants will overtake current minorities and even begin to rival the majority, making them the majority. I have the link to the source around here somewhere...Here.

That's the link from CIS. Those are some worrying statistics. Our infrastructure can't support that many impoverished people right now.

Clearly all mexican immigrants are impoverished illegals; no one with an education would want to leave Mexico to come to the United States.

NickD · Post by **NickD** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:46 am

NESchampion wrote:Clearly all mexican immigrants are impoverished illegals; no one with an education would want to leave Mexico to come to the United States.

Don't be silly, there aren't any educated people in Mexico!