Iran

[Stormseeker]

I will go with the chicken mainly because the zygote is not big enough for me to deep fry.

[NickD]

If the sperm came first then the rooster came before the egg which came before the hen...

So that means god is not a women afterall. Sorry Mik.

No, the egg came also before the rooster.

[NickD]

ç i p h é r, you've mentioned that you have lived in the middle east before. I'm genuinely curious, which country in the middle east did you live in?

[Cassiel]

And it's more than a little audacious and absurd of you to put words in my mouth then condemn me for it. I never suggested the two were equal, only that I was willing to BET Jeppan was both Anti American AND Anti Semitic.

I didn't put words into your mouth. You posted something which you perceive as fact - that Jeppan's anti-american - and deduced from that that he was anti-semitic. The only explanation of that I can see is that you believe that "anti-american" people are likely to be anti-semitic.

When put to the question, he has only responded with further rebukes. Is hating one any worse than hating the other in your mind, Cassiel? It's perfectly fine to be Anti American, but the mere hint of Anti Semitism is cause for offense? What an amazing double standard.

Let me spell out the key difference for you here. America is a country. Being anti-american, therefore, as Jeppan has explained to you, is being anti-the actions of that country.

Judaism is a religion. Being anti-semitic means hating people not for anything they've done, but merely for being of a particular religious persuasion.

Got that? One is being opposed to a nation's foreign policy, as Jeppan is, and the other is hating members of a particular religious faith. The former's perfectly fine if you can justify it, the latter's as unjustifiable as - oooh, bandying around "anti-semitic" as an accusation.

So why did I bring it up?

Is it because you're a bigot?

In the Arab world, anti American sentiment can be traced back to America's association with Israel. "Show me your friends and I'll tell you who you are." In other words, it is derived from anti Semitism and within Arab culture, anti Semitism is endemic. Even the children are not spared the indoctrination.

Sorry. Not getting into this discussion again, except to say that it's very easy to be "indoctrinated" into hating a nation when that nation sporadically reduces your country to rubble / bulldozes your homes / builds walls through your land, etc.

[Lusipher]

Danubus wrote:
Civilized people dont kidnap others and hold them hostage.


Gitmo Bay.

Quote:
If your parading around a bunch of people you kidnap and maybe even torture them or other things to make them sign documents etc then your not civilized are you? They are acting like savages.


Abu Ghraib.

I rest my case!

Gitmo is full of terrorists. We put them there because they tried to murder us or were tied to terrorist organizations. Their not hostages their enemy combatants.

Abu Ghraib was just a really stupid stupid incident. Those few morons who disgraced themselves and our country by lining those prisoners up and taking pictures of them doing demeaing things deserved to get booted out of the military and sent to prison.

[Overfilled Cup]

The past does not excuse the present.

Now theres rumors flying that the Iranians are going to put the UK sailors on trial.

By not spouting off and making threats of annihilation and total destruction and attempting diplomacy with the Iranians shows a high degree of patience and resolve by the UK.

I just wonder if Iran is capable of a similiar international tone. Not.

[mxlm]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 85_pf.html

Oh, Dan: do yourself a favor and read Chain of Command

[NickD]

Gitmo is full of terrorists. We put them there because they tried to murder us or were tied to terrorist organizations. Their not hostages their enemy combatants.

Then why are so many released without charge? If they're terrorists and bad people, surely after being kidnapped and held hostage for several years without legal representation they should be charged with something? I mean otherwise it's like they're innocent or something.

Abu Ghraib was just a really stupid stupid incident. Those few morons who disgraced themselves and our country by lining those prisoners up and taking pictures of them doing demeaing things deserved to get booted out of the military and sent to prison.

And, according to the article (opinion piece, admittedly) I linked to, the kindappers in this case are no linked to the Iranian military or government. They are a force of their own. And yet you are quite happy to paint all Iranians with the same brush, at the same time as dismissing Abu Ghraib as a "few morons" who "disgraced themselves and [your] country".



... Just to be clear here, I'm not anti-American. I wasn't even against the war on Iraq (although I took claims of WoMD with a big grain of salt and links to 9/11 with a whole salt shaker filled with massive grains of salt, and it might have been better to finish with Afghanistan first...). However, I am against the handling of the situation. I am against hatred and I am against hypocracy.

[ç i p h é r]

@Nick: I've lived in Lebanon, Iraq, Iran (pre-revolution), Kuwait, and Jordan, but my best recollections are of Kuwait and Jordan. I spent 10 years there combined and have many vivid memories still. It is those experiences I reflect on mostly.

Got that? One is being opposed to a nation's foreign policy, as Jeppan is, and the other is hating members of a particular religious faith. The former's perfectly fine if you can justify it, the latter's as unjustifiable as - oooh, bandying around "anti-semitic" as an accusation.

Oh I see. So calling Americans ignorant, among other things, is a critique of American foreign policy? And as long as I can justify it, I can call you whatever I want with impunity? That's handy. That explains perfectly how you can come to believe and say the things that you do.

Is it because you're a bigot?

Yeah, you figured me out, Cassiel. Frankly, I think you're out of your gourd.

Sorry. Not getting into this discussion again, except to say that it's very easy to be "indoctrinated" into hating a nation when that nation sporadically reduces your country to rubble / bulldozes your homes / builds walls through your land, etc.

Sure, only America never reduced any Arab country to rubble while I lived abroad so let me spell it out for you once again. The anti American sentiment in the Middle East is rooted in America's association with Isreal. It's easiest to hate when you're taught to at a young age, and this "education" isn't confined to religious schools. It is a part of the culture, as much as you'd like to believe that it isn't. Anti Semitism, and by extension Anti Americanism, is the rule rather than the exception.

What is really surprising here is the voracity with which you disparage me and defend them. For as much as you claim to abhor all forms of bigotry and profess your belief that it is entirely unjustifiable, you apparently have no qualms about jumping to the defense of an entire people who are unashamedly Anti Semitic and excusing their bigotry.

[NickD]

Sorry. Not getting into this discussion again, except to say that it's very easy to be "indoctrinated" into hating a nation when that nation sporadically reduces your country to rubble / bulldozes your homes / builds walls through your land, etc.

Sure, only America never reduced any Arab country to rubble while I lived abroad so let me spell it out for you once again.

I suspect he ment Israel. What with the bulldozing down of Palenstinian houses thing.

[Cassiel]

Oh I see. So calling Americans ignorant, among other things, is a critique of American foreign policy?

If that ignorance informs their foreign policy - and the huge percentage of Americans who thought Saddam was behind 9/11 offers one example of how it can - then yup.

And as long as I can justify it, I can call you whatever I want with impunity? That's handy. That explains perfectly how you can come to believe and say the things that you do.

You certainly can, and it certainly does.

It is a part of the culture, as much as you'd like to believe that it isn't. Anti Semitism, and by extension Anti Americanism, is the rule rather than the exception.

I agree! But it is part of the culture because American support for Israel takes the form of the very military hardware which they then use to bomb the hell out of their neighbours. That's how things get ingrained into a culture; repetition and impact.

Of course, accepting that makes the solution straightforward: make aid conditional on Israel adhering to UN resolutions immediately and absolutely.

What is really surprising here is the voracity with which you disparage me and defend them.

I've lost track - who is "them" here? The Iranians? The Arabs? The Muslims? Anyone who isn't American?

For as much as you claim to abhor all forms of bigotry and profess your belief that it is entirely unjustifiable, you apparently have no qualms about jumping to the defense of an entire people who are unashamedly Anti Semitic and excusing their bigotry.

I prefer to criticise Israel for creating the situation. At the moment, it seems to me that their wrongs are greater than those of "an entire people" (what do you mean by that phrase, incidentally? Or rather, which people, exactly?) who hate the state that persecutes them, and express that in part as a religious hatred (although the rhetoric used is normally around "the state of Israel" before it's about "jews").

It's worth noting that although Iran (to focus on that for a moment) is predominantly Muslim, there are minority religions which include Christianity and Judaism with reserved seats in the Iranian parliament, making calling them anti-semitic a little problematic.

[AlmightyTDawg]

What is really surprising here is the voracity with which you disparage me and defend them. For as much as you claim to abhor all forms of bigotry and profess your belief that it is entirely unjustifiable, you apparently have no qualms about jumping to the defense of an entire people who are unashamedly Anti Semitic and excusing their bigotry.

I think part of the problem of the conservative mindset is that they don't really understand the a lot of the criticism. Not all defenses are absolute - it's sort of similar to the justification/excuse distinction in criminal law.

Despite what many of a liberal mindset assert, most have an implicit belief in the superiority of their [liberal Western] culture. It's just that they have either a lack of self-awareness or a sense of good taste in not vocalizing it. The comfort and privilege to actually have and voice their ideas is the most fundamental value - some take it to an extreme of almost full moral relativism which chafes most conservatives. But it might also be a massive error to conflate American and European cultures in much aside from the liberal/secular tradition. The American mindset over the past few decades has been to view themselves with both the "privilege" and "responsibility" of being a world superpower. It ends up coming across as both haughty and intolerable in a hurry.

And what's tough for most conservatives to understand is the view that others hold regarding global power politics. It's kind of odd since a lot of them have some pretty extensive experience in negotiations and can recognize the inherent ill will which comes from one party exploiting unbalanced negotiations. And while it's real tough to see how broad the dynamic is when you add in global capitalism in addition to the historical and cultural aspects, there are some legitimate gripes from the rest of the world.

Or, to put it another way, when America doesn't like their position, they try sanctions and no-fly zones, sex up some "intelligence" on WMDs and form a "Coalition of the Willing" and in the end just invade a country. When Iran doesn't like their position, they threaten to build nuclear technology (of which many principles of sovereignty should conceptually allow them to do) and kidnap just over a dozen soldiers in inflatable rafts. It might be comparatively impotent, but describe what the difference is?

Most Americans would immediately leap into a discussion which fundamentally returns to "we're right, they're wrong." Most Iranians would say the same thing from their own perspective. While the U.S. might have once had a decent moral high ground on Iraq based on Saddam's history flouting U.N. resolutions, they simply don't anymore with the "enemy combatant" distinction. The Geneva Convention was meant to apply to all individuals; this "new designation" is the most preposterous concept this Administration has advanced.

But at this point, neither side is really capable of talking to one another - it's like men and women in a bad relationship yelling at each other. But what I think you need to recognize Cipher is that Cassiel is not necessarily advancing societies that repress free expression and women and what not. What he's asking is for you to take a bit of a broader view of global power politics and how it can look like the bully's mad that someone's finally fighting back. It's unfortunate that in a lot of cases the liberal polemic itself manages to fall into the exact same mode of blind superiority that it criticizes, but there is a fair amount of content in there if you look for it.

[NickD]

You sure do use a lot of them big words, ATD.

Despite what many of a liberal mindset assert, most have an implicit belief in the superiority of their [liberal Western] culture.

Case in point: My very liberal (converted from a rather conservative semi-neo nazi teenage years) friend, Adam, was watching the news at work one day back in 2003 when all this was kicking off. Watching the view from the reporter's hotel in Iraq he saw that Baghdad was a proper city.

"Baghdad's quite a modern city." Adam exclaimed with a degree of surprise.

"Yes, we don't all live in tents in the desert, Adam." Commented his Iranian workmate.

And thus Adam was ashamed of himself.



.. That's how I heard it anyway.

[mxlm]

The anti American sentiment in the Middle East is rooted in America's association with Isreal.

How do you square this belief with, for instance, Operation Ajax and the subsequent support of the Shah? American support for the House of Saud? 'Pres.' Musharraf? Uzbekistan's government? American backing, in short, of quite a few, um, objectionable governments in the area?

Do you not consider those governments objectionable? Do you not consider American support for them germane? Or is it something else entirely.

These questions are entirely--entirely--sincere, are not meant to be rhetorical, insulting, or whatever. I simply want to understand how it is you've formulated your view on this matter.

EDIT: http://www.worldisround.com/articles/98910/ For those who think iran is a country of Islamic nutjobs or somesuch--photographic evidence that it just isn't so.

[MorbidKate]

Actually, I think this is SOP - my understanding of special forces training is that when you're put in a hostage situation you are as cooperative as possible, and make yourself as inconspicuous as possible. Ultimately, these letters are BS, and everyone looking at them can tell the sailors had precisely nothing to do with their creation - so where exactly is the harm? I see no reason at all to bounce them out the military, particularly when they're following training.

The harm comes from enboldening Iran and making it appear that Britain has been lying all along. Now Iran is free to use these letters as proof of guilt should they decide to put the lot on trial. The SOP is the usual bits; name, rank, number, etc and not doing anything to piss off the lot holding you. The interesting thing is that so far it's just the sailors who've folded so easily in spite of the training they'd have received because they were on boarding duties. I for one will be shocked in ANY of the Royal Marines say or do anything to help Iran's case.

Considering the situation I'll bet the lot of you that they haven't been abused or tortured. At best sleep may be limited but they surely aren't being Gitmo'd. It's just PR and sabre-waving for the benefit of Iranians specifically and Muslims in general.

They'll probably get released within the next week.

Kate