Iran

Post by **ayergo** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:50 pm

One curious thing i haven't seen mentioned here yet is that it was Iranian special forces who did the job, and was executed with some expert timing.

This implies that there was some premeditation.

This brings up a host of issues for me, but what i haven't heard answered was more information on the cargo ship that was searched. It is said that it was Indian, but i have to wonder whether they were pawns or unlucky.

Regardless, i'm hoping we don't have another "Operation Eagle Claw" on our hands, but i don't think we will. If it came to it (i.e. they were put on trial to be executed), i'm pretty sure Team Six would be able to handle it if called.

Cassiel · Post by **Cassiel** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:56 pm

MorbidKate wrote:The thing that pisses me off about Faye Turney and the other sailor is that their letters and comments are only making their situation worse and making it more difficult for the Brits to get their quick release. They should be sitting tight and let the process play itself out, not encouraging Iran to string it out to get letters from every one of them.

Actually, I think this is SOP - my understanding of special forces training is that when you're put in a hostage situation you are as cooperative as possible, and make yourself as inconspicuous as possible. Ultimately, these letters are BS, and everyone looking at them can tell the sailors had precisely nothing to do with their creation - so where exactly is the harm? I see no reason at all to bounce them out the military, particularly when they're following training.

Mxlm: we get from "Iran kidnaps sailors" to "America is great!" because it's the knee-jerk reaction to anything involving America and any other country. The post could have been about Saudi Arabia releasing a version of Tom & Jerry dubbed into French and the usual suspects would be advocating bombing them, explaining that the problem is entirely because American forces aren't allowed to shoot on sight, and suggesting this mangling of a Western cartoon is because Muslims eat babies and have a culture not far removed from the cavemen...

Cassiel · Post by **Cassiel** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:58 pm

ç i p h é r wrote:You want to criticize me? Go right ahead. This is a forum for discussion after all. But what exactly is the basis for your opinion on the Middle East and America? You're clearly Anti American and I would wager that you are also Anti Semitic.

I'll criticise you for that, cipher. Anti-American does not equal Anti-Semitic, and it's invidious and cowardly of you to suggest that it does. Or rather - I'll "wager" that it is.

Address the issues, huh? This "I lived there once and hated it so I can write off a whole culture" crap is getting really tired.

Zakharra · Post by **Zakharra** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:59 pm

There's several ways to deal wth the Iranians if they do not give up the sailors. THreaten, then do take out the only gasoline refinery in the nation, then blockade the ports. Lastly, let the leaders of Iran (political and military) know that if fighting starts, they will be one of the first to be assassinated. Take the war to those in that nation who are pushing for it.

White Warlock · Post by **White Warlock** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:05 am

How about everyone removing the personal attacks? I found reasoned argument posed by Cipher, NickD, Jeppan, MorbidKate, Overfilled Cup, and others that have participated in this thread. I think, in many respects, you guys agree and are being distracted by side issues.

The Speech
It is generally known that threats are never visible, abuse is often hidden, and tortures don't always leave a mark. In the case of a woman, the threat of rape, or even the commission of it, is not visible, but it is very effective. High voltage / low amp electrocution, applied to the nether regions with sufficient vaseline, leaves no marks or burns. Water torture leaves no marks. Dental pain (attack of nerves in the mouth), a very nasty torture, leaves nothing to be seen.

Those mentioned above are old tortures, and our advances in human physiology, psychology, and chemical/drug interactions, leaves a talented torturer with a very nasty arsenal. Hell, nowadays we have the technology and knowledge to shove a needle, full of an alkaline, acid, or drug, right into the nervous system, even the spine... with no visible or long-term effects.

Yet, even if no physical torture was applied, and even if no threats were given, a low morale, relatively weak-minded soldier can quickly be manipulated into 'writing' such things, and later reading them aloud. But, any reasonable government, and military, will not so quickly be foolish enough to dismiss someone like that from the military on a political base, but they may very well receive a medical discharge. Honorable, but still a discharge.

Still, that's putting the cart before the horse. The issue of how do you get them out of there, without paying ransom, is still on the table for discussion.

Geneva Conventions
As to the discussion and debates on the Geneva Conventions (plural), please review these links:

http://www.cicr.org/ihl.nsf/WebSign?Rea ... d=375&ps=P

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/WebSign?Rea ... d=475&ps=S

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/WebSign?Rea ... d=470&ps=S

http://www.genevaconventions.org/

During the 1950s, there are a few nations that presented 'exceptions' to their adherence of the Geneva Conventions. Most notably, Vietnam, which essentially stated that the Geneva Conventions does not apply to non-nationals (i.e., foreign troops).

As to the criminal actions of the United States, in having a "no-rights" prisoner detainee camp at Guantanamo Bay, and of the relocation of prisoners to nations not 'restricted' by the Geneva Conventions, for the purposes of torturing said prisoners (or whatever other purposes), and for the actions on the field regarding the death of civilians (of which '100%' of the U.S. bombs, dropped in Iraq, as a preemptive strike, "missed" their mark and landed in civilian neighborhoods, whilst the government falsified the results of these incidents and continued to commit to the claim of, "100% accuracy" provided by the so-called 'target missiles'), it could easily be claimed that the United States, and its citizens, have no right to yell foul play. And while innumerable human rights abuses have been committed by insurgents, unfortunately, claims of being "in the right" have been exacerbated by yet further human rights abuses, posed in the list below, alleged to have been committed by Coalition forces:

A well-sourced article in Wikipedia wrote:
the torture and abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib

the use of white phosphorus

the murder of 24 civilians in Haditha, including women and children (under investigation)

the murder of 11 civilians in Ishaqi, including five children (under investigation)

the kidnapping and murder of an Iraqi man named Hashim Ibrahim Awad (under investigation)

the gang-rape and murder of a 14-year-old girl and the murder of her family, in Mahmudiyah (under investigation)

the bombing and shooting of 42 civilians in Mukaradeeb * (under investigation)
There have also been reported human rights abuses by some of the thousands of private military contractors working in Iraq. The most notorious case, involving contractors, took place at the Abu Ghraib prison.

* Neil Mackay. "Iraq: The Wedding Party Massacre", Sunday Herald, 2004-03-14.

So, returning to the issue of Iran's 'recent' actions, I can hardly say it is all that horrendous, in comparison.

NESchampion · Post by **NESchampion** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:02 am

ç i p h é r wrote:What I don't do is go around calling my opponents names.
*snip*
I suspect that you weren't exactly a bright spot on their academic record.

Congrats:

NESchampion · Post by **NESchampion** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:11 am

Danubus wrote:
Danubus wrote:
This is how the Iranians roll...we know. Civilized? Nope. Savages...yes.

Yes, I'm sure broad sweeping generalizations and borderline racism will help the situation now and in the future.

Civilized people dont kidnap others and hold them hostage. Its not racism. How do you see that?

Oh I don't know, it might be this statement here:

how the Iranians roll...we know. Civilized? Nope. Savages...yes.

White Warlock · Post by **White Warlock** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:34 am

Oi, i suppose you can carry your own personal idea of what 'civilized' is. Morality, as a basis to this argument, falls under the hypocrisy of relativism, in which one society's perceptions of morality so substantially differ from another society's, that claims of barbarism are posed. More appropriately, we should realize that a civilized society lives under the barbarism of its foundations. I.e,. in order to celebrate to the upscale of civilized life, you must rely on others to commit barbaric actions. Police, firemen, soldiers, politicians, corporate wigs, and international profiteers of a 'civilized' nation all commit barbaric acts to maintain the pristine lifestyle of the clueless civilian.

So... when a man holds someone hostage, are they a barbarian? Or, are they desperate?

Overfilled Cup · Post by **Overfilled Cup** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:34 am

Why is the US being blamed in this thread. It is the UK that has soldiers kidnapped. The only thing the US had done is flex muscle off the Iranian coast in the form of war games and stated publicly that we support UK in whatever way they decide to handle the situation.

Where is the EU ? Is not the UK a member of the EU and why have they not offerd any commentary on the subject or support ?

White Warlock · Post by **White Warlock** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:50 am

That's an easy one Overfilled. The U.S. are receiving heat in this discussion because American citizens are participating in these discussions. When an American states a definitive, even a totally absurd one, it is construed as a 'National' stance, as opposed to an individual's often uninformed opinion. Just as well, we can argue the comments posed by the German participants in this thread, or the Swiss, or Swedish, for the French, or whatever other Nation-base, and claim that the citizen of such a nation represents the totality of that Nation's opinions.

Unfortunately, the U.S. Government is being run by an arse-monkey and, as such, U.S. citizens are easy targets for aggression and contempt, regardless of their individual stance, or of the present U.S. National stance that is in mass contention with that of the reining U.S. Administration. Still, it is hard to completely ignore those who steadfastly adhere to the falsities presented in 2002, and since, by this administration regarding the war in Iraq, which has so profoundly dishonored most Americans. In many ways, i am saddened by the embarrassment this, and some previous wars, pose. There are just so many peace-loving and respectable U.S. citizens that have been used by the military-industrial complex so prevalent in America.

NickD · Post by **NickD** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:09 am

mxlm wrote:How do we get from 'Iran kidnaps sailors' to 'American way of life is/isn't superior' and 'those who dislike America are/aren't ignorant'?

It always ends up that way when Jeppan posts in a thread.

Lusipher · Post by **Lusipher** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:10 am

Oh I don't know, it might be this statement here:

Quote:
how the Iranians roll...we know. Civilized? Nope. Savages...yes

Once again I see no racism. If your parading around a bunch of people you kidnap and maybe even torture them or other things to make them sign documents etc then your not civilized are you? They are acting like savages.

NickD · Post by **NickD** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:22 am

ç i p h é r wrote:Perhaps marginally true at best, Nick. Can you get a gun pointed in your face in America? Sure. Stick your nose in someone else's business in the wrong part of town. But is that common place here? Not even remotely.

There are certainly "bad neighborhoods" in every city or state, but those are truly few and far between. Do you think the Middle East is devoid of poverty and violence? Not by a long shot. Even without the crazies. Consider that there is no minimum wage in that part of the world. There are no labor rights. There are no civil rights. Consider as well that punishments are often very severe and that there is no entitlement to due process. If the government takes issue with you, expect to find yourself in a deep, dark cell somewhere if you're lucky. If you're not, well all I can say is that there were plenty of rumors of the sorts of interrogations people were subjected too. I can't substantiate any of that of course, but I can't imagine it's very far from the truth. And this is what you can expect of the more moderate nations like Jordan. The radical, fundamentalist nations are just off the charts.

I would also wager that the average income per household in America exceeds that of most nations - the exceptions are likely to be small well to do countries like Kuwait and Switzerland. America is not the land of opportunity by chance. Wealth creation in this country is a very real thing and a LOT of immigrants have and are realizing that opportunity. Perhaps things have changed in the years since I left the Middle East, but somehow I doubt it. It certainly doesn't look like it has changed much. It was fairly common back then to have "worker pools" where laborers gathered in the hopes of finding work. We would drive by every so often to pick up someone with the requisite skills to work our garden or mend our fences and do a variety of menial tasks. And they were all willing to work for the cost of a few loaves of bread. Can you imagine that? Do you have any idea how much we pay even the most menial laborers in America?

Whether you want to believe it or not, Americans are among the most wealthy, compassionate, and giving people in the world and that is evidenced by the private donations made by American citizens to the poor, the destitute, and those that endure hardships all across the globe. And that doesn't factor in what our government pledges in foreign aid. Conversely, what nations, what people send food or money to us when our cities, like New Orleans, are devastated? Does anyone? I don't know, but I doubt it.

Just because we are capitalists does not mean we are not compassionate. And just because you wound up in the wrong neighborhood or went looking for trouble does not mean that America is run by street gangs and drug traffickers. If you believe that, you've been watching too many movies. People who think ill of America typically do not do so on the basis of any real facts about Americans, and therein lies our biggest problem. I've come to know many foreign ex patriots living and working in America, and they all expressed surprised at how DIFFERENT America was from their perceptions going in. And, those I've known who've had to go back have done so with heavy hearts.

That's a tangent. I didn't compare the US to the Middle East at all.

I was merely comparing the US and England to the other countries I have been to (New Zealand, Australia, Japan, Canada, Portugal, France, Germany, Sweden, Finland and the Netherlands). And I didn't feel threatened at any point in any of those other places, and there were significantly less indications of poverty, homelessness and white trashness in all of those countries over the US and England. And I specifically avoided "bad areas". Income itself doesn't mean anything. You have to compare it to cost of living. US$100 doctor visits?

This indicates that the US and England have cultures based on violence and gang worship with a lack of compassion for others. Hence they are uncivilized savages compared to the rest of the "first world".

NickD · Post by **NickD** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:23 am

Danubus wrote:Civilized people dont kidnap others and hold them hostage.

Gitmo Bay.

If your parading around a bunch of people you kidnap and maybe even torture them or other things to make them sign documents etc then your not civilized are you? They are acting like savages.

Abu Ghraib.

I rest my case!

White Warlock · Post by **White Warlock** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:24 am

Danubus wrote: Once again I see no racism. If your parading around a bunch of people you kidnap and maybe even torture them or other things to make them sign documents etc then your not civilized are you? They are acting like savages.

Ooo, thanks Danubus.

Savages... fun topic.

First, it is not known if they were tortured or coerced into writing, signing, or reading any documents. It is possible, although not likely, that it was done voluntarily. It may very well have been something taken from a private journal on the British vessel. Simply stated, we can only speculate.

Second, Iran is a nation far weaker than the United States. The United States can claim any Iranian in Iraq must be a terrorist and therefore can be killed, even though people from all nations are 'still' being allowed to tour Iraq. What response can a weaker nation present to the wholesale slaughter of their citizens not privy to the border's death sentence? Seriously, who's the savage?

Third, there has not been presented indisputable evidence to claim the British vessel was in International waters.

Fourth, when another nation's military obtains custody of a vessel that has illegally intruded upon their waters, those on said vessel are also taken into custody. It is the right of that nation as how to prosecute, within Internationally stipulated agreements.

Does this mean i'm okay with the whole thing? No, not at all... but i would say it is a far cry to call them 'savages,' especially when the literacy rate in Iran is actually higher than some E.U. nations.

Breaking away from this whole 'savages' argument, i believe the U.S. and U.K. are very close to taking this as an opportunity to enter into conflict with Iran. As well, i gain the impression the religious leaders in Iran are hoping for similar results. So, as a whole, this is one soup that has a good chance of burning quite a few palettes.