A Land Far Away

My friend tried playing a rogue but found it fairly frustrating. There was no locks she could pick, no traps to disarm, no situations to bluff her way out of. Is there any use for a rogue? They have low hit points, attack is so-so, especially at lower levels and hide doesn't become great till higher level. Mostly the problem is a lack of use for all the skills. Are we missing something?

In the NWN2 ALFA rogues were absolutely under-valued in scripting, static quests etc. Charisma based skills are also limited for the in-engine game.


Once you get with a DM that changes somewhat. More skill checks, more traps etc.


But your observation is noted.

In NWN1 rogues ruled Waterdeep in the early years. Some of the biggest players were rogue combinations with huge estates earning thousands of gold a week through scripted racketeering. A lot of houses had regular locks easily pickable and robbed. Once some builder/DMs found out what was going on, gambling houses and scripts were sealed or removed, most locks were made unoickable. You can check out the WD mod and see. So I think there was some pushback against letting rogues have a free reign without DM intervention. But WD still has a dozen safe houses, quests, and guilds for rogues. For the next iteration, we need to decide how this is going to work.

Useless? No... but playing a rogue type does require a lot more finesse/imagination than say a fighter.

There's potential (admittedly not too often realized) for rogues to become highly relevant, even dominate gameplay, with certain kinds of DMed sessions in ALFA. There have been times in the past (when we had more active DMs) when it seemed like every other character had a few lvls of rogue in them so they can get more skills (nwn1 WD server recently felt like this interestingly enough). With a supportive DM, there's potentially a vast number of options available with skillsy characters far beyond just traps, locks, and stealth.

Static content without a DM is a different story; unless you find specific locations where traps/locks do occasionally come into play, or you live long enough to become really sneaky, etc. low lvl roguery around static content currently is quite limited.

As others have noted, this seems to have become more pronounced in ALFA2 vs ALFA1... back in the day I remember the majority of our Hall of Fame PCs were rogue types, not the guys that excelled at beating stuff up.

Playing a rogue is like playing an Illusionist. There's not a lot of static content that will be satisfying, but a DM will allow you to shine. This is mostly because of engine limitations and design decisions.

That said, on BG there are traps/locks on random loot and in dungeons that a rogue is useful for.

They make good scouts (cannon fodder) too in groups.

FoamBats4All wrote:Playing a rogue is like playing an Illusionist. There's not a lot of static content that will be satisfying, but a DM will allow you to shine. This is mostly because of engine limitations and design decisions.

A Rogue, like an Illusionist, will require DM attention to play at its full potential (like Foam said) - but often this means some one on one time with the DM. In a group, this can be a challenge, and often one doesn't want to hog the attention if they can avoid it (at least, for me).

That being said...

Even if traps and locks are rare, Rogues can be quite strong with a group. If you're playing a tight-knit group, try learning that whoever is in melee should try to allow the Rogue to get Flank/Back attacks so they can always be Sneak Attacking (which is how they begin to shine in combat). Like most classes, they will have combat limitations - their soloing (which in ALFA, this is important for almost any class) is weak, and Undead prove a huge hindrance due to their immunity to Critical Hits and Sneak Attacks.

Basically...
1. Rogues are great for parties.
2. Rogues require Sneak Attacks to do well in combat.
3. Rogues are skill monkeys. They tend to have a lot of skills, which is very useful for DM'd content.
4. Rogues, and anyone else in ALFA, should not solo.

Having made it to lvl 10rog/5 SDer in ALFA1 I wholeheartedly support everything Magile said.

I agree that all static dungeons should be designed so that the maximum reward or goal cannot be achieved without a rogue-type. The end boss can't be reached, the treasure vault can't be opened, etc.

This should be true as well for other classes. Usually it's a barrier or guardian monster that is very difficult to kill without certain spells , divine or arcane. Or, hard to avoid effects that need restorative divine spells.

It always helps in assuring a nice classic D&D foursome, and make PC choices more varied.

As someone who has played rogues for almost 35 years in pnp and several in Alfa as well.. rogues are needed and a great backup for fighters. Having a level 5/4 rogue wiz in nwn2 Merry was a formidable scout.

Survivability at level 1 is hard unless you group up with others. But it is possible to survive. Find a well balanced group with a fighter type and a healer of some sorts and a rogue will shine. Being able to disable the traps scout out the passages and open locked doors and chest makes a rogue a valuable part of any group.

Things rogues need:
DEX
INT
CHA
CON
WIS
STR
Highest stats start with dex and then go down as Str is offset by SA.

Short answer, yes. until you need them. This is true for all classes except fighter, which is always needed except when not needed.

Stormbringer wrote:As someone who has played rogues for almost 35 years in pnp and several in Alfa as well.. rogues are needed and a great backup for fighters. Having a level 5/4 rogue wiz in nwn2 Merry was a formidable scout.

Merry and Olin used to go pretty much anywhere in TSM , they were a great duo, Rogue/Wiz with Cleric/Fig.

SCI-kick wrote:

Stormbringer wrote:As someone who has played rogues for almost 35 years in pnp and several in Alfa as well.. rogues are needed and a great backup for fighters. Having a level 5/4 rogue wiz in nwn2 Merry was a formidable scout.

Merry and Olin used to go pretty much anywhere in TSM , they were a great duo, Rogue/Wiz with Cleric/Fig.

Ahh the good old days fun times.

SCI-kick wrote:I agree that all static dungeons should be designed so that the maximum reward or goal cannot be achieved without a rogue-type. The end boss can't be reached, the treasure vault can't be opened, etc.

This should be true as well for other classes. Usually it's a barrier or guardian monster that is very difficult to kill without certain spells , divine or arcane. Or, hard to avoid effects that need restorative divine spells.

It always helps in assuring a nice classic D&D foursome, and make PC choices more varied.

My view exactly. That's why disarming traps give XP in Waterdeep and also most loot requires a lock pick.

Rogue skills are important in a party and on the BG server, are indeed useful. BG has more trap/treasure scripting than the other live servers do at present.