NWN2 Sublicensing

[Zelknolf]

Out of the previous thread, this was one that was at least not objected to.


The general concept goes thusly:
-- The owner of a copy of NWN2 doesn't actually own NWN2; they own a license to use NWN2. I think we can give that license to someone else conditionally. "You can play NWN2 with this license for as long as you play in ALFA regularly."
-- So we pile up NWN2s; ALFA can have some from me to get us started-- though if members have double CD keys (which I know happens from time to time; folk buy NWN2, play NWN2, lose their NWN2, buy a new NWN2, then find the first NWN2), we can ask if they're willing to give the extras to recruit folk.
-- Those NWN2s go to folk who join and don't already have one. We help them get it set up (client extension and whatnot) and get them in game on whatever server is most newbie friendly (probably BG) or we get them into a campaign (right now, probably mine, Ronan's, or Adanu's. Though shad0wfax might be starting a thing, and I'm not perfectly aware of what happened to AK's offer).


So questions:
-- Folk with a legal background: Am I right that we can do this? No death army of lawyers from the guys who bought the last publisher?
-- Everyone else: Is there anyone who's at least a little bit more sociable than I am willing to actually get the word out?
-- Everyone else: We have some links to general gaming communities from previous aborted efforts at PR, but I am wondering if people know of good roleplaying or fanfiction communities-- places more interested in sharing story than mastering mechanics (preferably which are not porn-centric)? Those folk seem like folk who would be happier in an immersive role playing environment.

[oldgrayrogue]

I am not an intellectual property lawyer and haven't researched the law on this, but I'd wager that as long as we are not copying NWN2 CD's and selling them (which we are not) or charging people for the right to "use" our CDs (which we are not) once you actually buy a copy of the game you can likely do what you want with it -- i.e give it to a friend, let them play it etc., which sounds like what you are suggesting.

[Heero]

Ill give you people my CD key if you are able to trick any suckers into trying the game out.

[orangetree]

http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/End-User_License_Agreement

RESTRICTIONS You may not delete or obscure any copyright, trademark or other proprietary notice on the Software or accompanying printed materials. You may not decompile, modify, reverse engineer, disassemble or otherwise reproduce the Software. You may not copy, rent, lease, sublicense, distribute, publicly display the Software, create derivative works based on the Software (except to the extent expressly permitted in the Editor and End-User Variation section of this Agreement or other documentation accompanying the Software) or otherwise commercially exploit the Software. You may not electronically transmit the Software from one computer, console or other platform to another or over a network. You may not use any backup or archival copy of the Software for any purpose other than to replace the original copy in the event it is destroyed or becomes defective.

Essentially if you have a physical disc to give to someone, with the CD key intact, it's fine.

Downloads such as GOG games have their own agreements. I suspect it says 'for use by the account holder only' or some such, but one would have to check.

Spoiler:

1.License. Company grants you a non-exclusive, non-transferable license to use the Program, but retains all property rights in the Program and all copies thereof. This Program is licensed, not sold, for your personal, non-commercial use. Your license confers no title or ownership in this Program and should not be construed as any sale of any rights in this Program. You may not transfer, distribute, rent, sub-license, or lease the Program or documentation, except as provided herein; alter, modify, or adapt the Program or documentation, or portions thereof including, but not limited to, translation, decompiling or disassembling. You agree not to modify or attempt to reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the Program, except and only to the extent that such activity is expressly permitted under applicable law notwithstanding this limitation. All rights not expressly granted under this Agreement are reserved by Company.

Essentially you are not allowed to transmit a digital verson or give the keys to someone else. They are for you alone, legally. That being said, you are allowed to 'gift' a program on GOG for someone else.

[Zelknolf]

Much annoy... this is decidedly less viable if we just have to buy copies for others permanently.


I do find it interesting that the whole NWN2 community violates almost every point of their allowed variations, of course (it's full of porn, we have NWNx4 and the CE, and we're full of copyrighted material and trademarks-- and, indeed, would have to violate terms about modifying executables to remove them). I guess I have a little chortle about that.

[orangetree]

As I understand it, neither one modifies the executable. They simply hook onto the executable and give different outputs based on it's input. That aspect is not illegal (but is grey) in of itself. Though modding a character to be naked? Possibly not allowed. I'm not sure. I suspect it goes against the spirit of the game but.. I hear this can happen on pnp too.

I always found it a bit strange that you can make the most horrific, sickening and depraved acts of barbarism with the engine but.. a naked character? Now you've gone too far!

[oldgrayrogue]

I think it is because the developers don't care. They aren't even supporting the game anymore. However, I would say that if you "gift" the game to someone there is nothing preventing them from "gifting" it back to you. I think the developers only really care if you are deriving some profit based commercial benefit from their intellectual property. We are not so I doubt they will care or even notice.

[Brokenbone]

IP/IT Lawyer - the license is pretty clear, plan is fucked from the get go.

Practical terms though, enforcement is really by the rights holders, and it's really hard to see how this and so many other games can have active huge mod communities without it pretty clearly running roughshod over the actual limitations in the licenses (much as per Zelk's chortle comment). Maybe it's just strategic to let people improve and build content relying on your product, without any complaint. It may ultimately sell copies, keep buzz going. However, if a core commercial interest is touched on, like "not only are we modding, here's copies and keys to freely borrow", that may cause the ol' sleeping giant to awake. Same'd go for publishers caring about cracked versions being distributed, or I suppose absolutely grotesque mods maybe they'd decide to send nasty cease and desist letters.

[Zelknolf]

As I understand it, neither one modifies the executable. They simply hook onto the executable and give different outputs based on it's input.

They modify the program at runtime, including the modification of active memory and the hooking/diverting of program events. You might be able to wiggle it as "not modifying the executable" to say that "only the one in memory, not the one on the disk, is being modified" but that feels pretty slippery to me. (mind you, most legal things feel slippery to me-- like that I can legally own a thing that I'm not allowed to let a friend use)


It would also be impossible to distribute any custom content by the conditions placed in the EULA because they all contain copyrighted material (the Dungeons and Dragons rules) and trademarks (Dungeons and Dragons / Forgotten Realms) by virtue of existing, and removing them without preventing their use would require modification of the core program.

So the EULA is impossible to follow. Or they're actively distributing software that violates it. Or both.



BB, do these agreements lose power if they're not enforced (like a trademark), and/or do we get ammunition if the terms of use contradict themselves by nature?

Also, can we draft agreements that require the proposed "gifting" scheme? Does that run afoul of the "non-transferable" clause in GoG?

[orangetree]

It goes by your 'definition' of modification. What they are talking about is actual modification of the executable. But if you are just 'wrapping' around it with another program... it's grey but not actually illegal as nothing has been changed in the actual execution of the program. It's still doing what it was programmed to do, it's just working in a different environment. It's a bit like getting nwn2 to run in Linux. It was never designed to, but it certainly isn't illegal if you manage it (though you will have to do some grey things to make it happen)

I believe there is an agreement to have dnd related material specific for the forgotten realms and an expectations of fans to draw on those copyrighted characters which is allowed under the terms. Though this probably only applies to content as it was when the game came out, not 'new' content (DND 3.5 onwards). It has the wizards of the coast logo on the box, so is allowed to have those characters.

Just don't try to mod Mickey Mouse into the game

[Zelknolf]

It's still doing what it was programmed to do, it's just working in a different environment.

What I'm saying is that this isn't true. Intercepting events makes those events not happen, and thus replaces the execution of part of the program with some arbitrary thing that the modder specifies.

That's the core thing that NWNx4 does; it intercepts the SetLocalString function and then does a thing in a plugin instead.

I believe there is an agreement to have dnd related material specific for the forgotten realms and an expectations of fans to draw on those copyrighted characters which is allowed under the terms.

There is, from WotC; it's still expressly forbidden in the EULA...

EDITOR AND END-USER VARIATIONS If the Software includes a feature that allows you to modify the Software or to construct new variations (an "Editor"), you may use such Editor to create modifications or enhancements to the Software, including the construction of new levels (collectively the "Variations"), subject to the following restrictions. Your Variations: (i) must only work with the full, registered copy of the Software; (ii) must not contain modifications to any executable file; (iii) must not contain any libelous, defamatory or other illegal material, material that is scandalous or invades the rights of privacy or publicity of any third party; (iv) must not contain any trademarks, copyright-protected work or other property of third parties; and (v) may not be commercially exploited by you, including but not limited to making such Variations available for sale or as part of a pay-per-play or timesharing service.

But... the agreement is between you and the publisher, not you and WotC.

[orangetree]

It's still doing what it was programmed to do, it's just working in a different environment.

What I'm saying is that this isn't true. Intercepting events makes those events not happen, and thus replaces the execution of part of the program with some arbitrary thing that the modder specifies.



That's the core thing that NWNx4 does; it intercepts the SetLocalString function and then does a thing in a plugin instead.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one I guess. I don't consider it a modification of the executable, but concede it acts as if it has been modified. To me it's like modifying the road instead of the car to make it go faster. Sure, you've made the car faster and nobody can tell how... because it looks exactly the same.

In this case, 'I think' WOTC becomes a second party, not a third as there is an agreement which allows the use of these characters by others who use the engine (But don't take my word for it.)

[Brokenbone]

For something like the next 70-100 years, there'll be copyright in this stuff, whether owned by Atari, third parties, or whoever they may sell / transfer their interests to. Spotty or non-existent complaint or inconsistent looking practices don't really harm their right... but even if their rights were even a little impaired, is someone on behalf of a little gaming community likely to stand up to even a 2 minutes' inhouse legal effort Cease and Desist letter from say, Atari? No.

Maybe people moving around discs and keys (gifts?) wouldn't be looked at harshly by a publisher (though it is forgone revenue), but if there were some organized scheme of getting new players without new revenue, it could attract attention. Say if ALFA was to put up an online marketplace of people selling used copies of NWN2 for $1, hey, could attract negative attention, probably through a rat (plenty of wronged-feeling ex-ALFAns around!)

[Zelknolf]

Well, if it's just giving copies away that we've purchased, it's not really forgone revenue. The first person we give it to agrees to the EULA and acquires a license. Publisher gets the same amount of revenue (sale of one game per player).

The trick is that I expect high attrition rates, as with all things gaming. Would be nice if there was some way to recover the NWN2s which aren't being used any more. Otherwise we're looking at it being very expensive to equip people with programs and actually convert to regular players.

[oldgrayrogue]

I defer to the IT/IP lawyer.