Challenges: Hard/Easy enough for you?

[boombrakh]

DISCLAIMER!! This is in no way supposed to reflect poorly on any player. It is an observation, an expression of said observation, and action as a result of said observation.

So, I havn't been doing this nearly as much as some other people have but there is something that has been painstakingly obvious and that is how easy/hard things get when high level PC's are bored.

Let's say a group of us lower level players are hanging out, chillaxing, maxing, thinking we are cool when a DM comes online to do some random stuff. He/she sees a group of people roleplaying together and decides that "hay, some glazeebu right up their alleys would be awesome!". Now, things starts to get shaking and all of a sudden, Bigsword McHatemole comes walking in, ending up in the DM event and want/need (IC) to take a part of whatever glazeebu-slaughtering event there is. I have no problem with this whatsoever, in fact, I would probably want to act the same way as well if my name was Bigsword McHatemole. I mean, after all we all want some DM McLovin.

Now, here is what i'm thinking; having Bigsword McHatemole along is fun and all, but because all of a sudden, the horde of Glazeebus are only a minor nusiance and the rest of the party can be content with staying in the background throwing around the occasional Shuriken just to make it seem like they are contributing. This, right here, is where it becomes a snooze-fest for me personally.

So, the DM has a few choices normally. Up the resistance so that even Bigsword McHatemole gets to have fun, or keep it as planned and waste a couple of hours of his/her time watching Bigsword McHatemole plow through hordes of Glazeebu cannon fodder. Now, if the DM want's to make it a challenge, then every other player in the group is up poop creek becuse all those glazeebus all of a sudden brought their Daddy McPitfiend with them and a hit from that might be a challenge for Bigsword McHatemole, but it's permadeath for the rest of the people.

So, in light of this, I find it incredibly boring when there is no risk involved and when there is risk, it's often over the top and thus not a risk, but a death warrant. At such, I am at a greater length going to try to find an IC reason not to participate in the event. And again, this isn't supposed to reflect poorly on any specific player, but rather on me for wanting to enjoy the game to it's full extent. Sometimes, i'll find a good IC reason and opt out and sometimes I wont and probably end up falling asleep during the event. But it's as they say: "C'est la vie"...

I do immensly enjoy RP with each and every one I meet by the way. That is always engaging and fun, regardless of level so I hope to meet you all out there!


Good luck, happy "hunting", and see you around!
boom out.


EDIT: I had a talk with someone and this person pointed out that this text here was pointlessly aggressive and even though I dont agree 100%, it should be noted that if some phrases come off as aggressive, they aren't supposed to do that. I am not trying to hang out anyone or say that highlevels are always trying to hog DM-time and login just to take said DM time. I am sorry for any misunderstandings.

What I want to say is that too big differences in levels in groups is either boring for lower level players or too dangerous, if possible, I would like to encourage players to take note of this and try to be a part of a fun and rewarding experience for all involved

[Brokenbone]

Focus on the positive. RP can be good and engrossing regardless of level.

Some things that "automatically" change as levels get acquired though can contribute in a huge way to combat disparities. Terror for one PC = pushover for another.

Some things that are "customized" as levels change though can still mean enough differentiation in PCs that a variety of challenges (often non-combat) can give everyone a chance to be in the spotlight for a few minutes. Even if it's not necessarily for positive reasons, "successfully overcoming all challenges" isn't the point, it can often be fun to fail at things.

Heavy armored rootin' tootin' pitfiend slayer may have 0 ranks in climb, 0 ranks in search. Nooblin might be wearing 5gp padded, but has maxed those skills. Perhaps he'll notice and be able to make a run at I don't know, a loose brick fifteen feet up a wall which might have a plot item hidden away behind it (no, not talking "need to build a fancy scripted wall", more like "you're in a cave and the DM narrates something"). Who's the star now?

Same goes for social skills, or a tough lock, whatever. DMs I am sure are peeking at character sheets, noting strengths and weaknesses over time, and occasionally pitching a skill based encounter into a mix, not just the real time combat thing with high CR critters going nuts on a party of mixed durability.

[I-KP]

I've always harboured a secret interest in the E6[1] system for PWs which although far from completely 'fixing' the level disparity issue, it does significantly reduce the gamut of likely levels thus keeping everything at a broadly inclusive degree of threat. E6 makes the DM's life a metric sh_t-ton easier to boot.

[1] In a nutshell: PC's stop at level 6 then for every 5K-10K xp thereafter they pick up another Feat instead.

[hollyfant]

I love the concept of E6, though I never got a chance to actually play it.

[oldgrayrogue]

I've always harboured a secret interest in the E6[1] system for PWs which although far from completely 'fixing' the level disparity issue, it does significantly reduce the gamut of likely levels thus keeping everything at a broadly inclusive degree of threat. E6 makes the DM's life a metric sh_t-ton easier to boot.

[1] In a nutshell: PC's stop at level 6 then for every 5K-10K xp thereafter they pick up another Feat instead.

What about skills? and Spells?

As to Boom's post, IMO I don't think it was agrressive and kudos for bringing it up. I too have often felt that adventuring with a high level when the rest of the group is low level can sometimes ruin the fun. Don't get me wrong, there are a gazillion ways this can be totally IC and lots of fun to RP IC, but when it becomes "watch the high level kill everything or participate and die" yes it can become sucky. I think it is up to player etiquette to be cognizant of this, or DMs to police this, and it can be done a few ways. If it is not IC for a high level to join a low level group the DM can just say so politely in an OOC tell to the player -- or if you are uncomfortable with that (some DMs are) think of some "highly important IC reason" why the uber high level PC is called away elsewhere. Maybe even follow up with that with the high level separately so they don't feel shunned.

Alternatively, when it is a combat oriented event, spawn a boss to face the high level, and low CR creatures for everyone else, and try possessing the higher CR boss and controlling it during the combat so it does not target the lowbies. Alternatively spawn it some distance away from the action with the other spawns so the high level can move away from the rest of the group to challenge it, or give plenty of IC cues to the lowbies that this is a significant challenge around the bend.

Another option is for all the lowbies to gang up on the high level kill them and take all their phat lootz (jkng )

[Zelknolf]

There are, of course, multiple perspectives on this. Easy to complain about those dirty dirty high level PCs, to be sure, but I would counter that I previously had regular DM time in the middle of the day on Saturdays (now occupied by lowbies), have been told not to respond in an appropriate IC manner to obviously-unethical PCs (because they were lowbies) and have watched a higher-level faction (containing half of the tech team) have all of its plot threads stagnate while a lowbie faction rapidly builds wealth and connections.

I've also gotten to enjoy such stimulating conversation as trying to give special rewards to once-weekly players, to give special rewards to people who log in during special promotions, and to give special rewards to new characters, but having any sort of incentive to contribute at all be shot down (that would be meta), all while certain players make this charming combination of being a font of ideas that require technical implementation while simultaneously snapping at any assessment of the technical feasibility of the idea.

All of this I can grumble about as an aside. I'd say that it's B.S. and be unhappy about it, but what's there to do? It's a game. People are going to play it however they have fun-- or they'll try to. People are going to give opinions and we have to let them, because it's a democratic system. But now you're complaining that sometimes you have to endure the presence of higher-level characters during some of the sessions you've somehow 'ended up' with, while time when I once had plot is now spent either emoting at myself or being relegated to latching onto someone else's in the hopes that I'll get to play the game I actively develop for? It is, frankly, grossly offensive and insensitive, Boom.

[Heero]

Everyone wants a piece of the pie, but there is only so much to go around. So, lets all share the pie like good little boys and girls.

[boombrakh]

There are, of course, multiple perspectives on this.

That is correct, and one of those perspectives would obviously be the one below, which isn't at all where I was going. But I guess I have myself to blame for that. I tend to come off a bit aggressive, even when I am not and it seems that as of late, my intentions have been percieved in the wrong light. That is something I have to see to and I will take that to heart.

But now you're complaining that sometimes you have to endure the presence of higher-level characters during some of the sessions you've somehow 'ended up' with, while time when I once had plot is now spent either emoting at myself or being relegated to latching onto someone else's in the hopes that I'll get to play the game I actively develop for? It is, frankly, grossly offensive and insensitive, Boom.

Not at all. I am not complaining about anything, but rather pointing something out that can have a negative effect on people who participate. As surprising as it may sound Zelk, this has absolutely nothing to do with you or anyone else for that matter. It is a phenomena that is occuring that I wanted to address. There is no need for you to take this personal as there is nothing directed at you.

It was not, and is not, offensive or insensitive. I am sorry that it is the way you chose to read it. This isn't about you. I am sure that everyone here, including me, appreciates everything you do and wish you to get as much attention from DM's as the next person.

[Castano]

We need Dms to level cap event groups and stick to it. We need players to show up for their scheduled events.

It's hard for McDM to McPlan a McAdventure for his group of Mclvl 1-3s when they don't McShowup so then the DM has to McDo with who ever showed up, even if it is McBadass and other mid to high levels.

So we're basically trying to make do with whoever logged on.

Go figure if the above missile weapon fest for lvl1s while watching a lvl8 tear apart monsters is not the result.

I am goingto start level capping my events on Friday nights at lvl4 max. Everyone else can go play elsewhere.

[NESchampion]

We need Dms to level cap event groups and stick to it. We need players to show up for their scheduled events.

It's hard for McDM to McPlan a McAdventure for his group of Mclvl 1-3s when they don't McShowup so then the DM has to McDo with who ever showed up, even if it is McBadass and other mid to high levels.

So we're basically trying to make do with whoever logged on.

Go figure if the above missile weapon fest for lvl1s while watching a lvl8 tear apart monsters is not the result.

I am goingto start level capping my events on Friday nights at lvl4 max. Everyone else can go play elsewhere.

By all means; level caps and regular groups really help keep things in order for the DM to make things easier.

Having said that, I have a hard time recalling any recent instances of the opposite, at least on Silverymoon: a minimum level to participate. Obviously that's wholly up to the individual DMs to decide for their sessions though; sometimes it doesn't make sense to have a minimum cap for the local goblin tribe attacking the village, as opposed to say a baby dragon causing havoc.

I think it boils down to this: lower levels want to have room to grow and be challenged. And so do higher levels. Lower levels want to feel like they have an impact on the server. And so do higher levels. It's difficult to balance both ends of the spectrum in a single session. The lower levels want to make a name for themselves. The higher levels already experienced the low levels life of being unknowns; they want the name they made for themselves to mean something, good or bad, when it comes to influencing the server. John who helps stop an orc attack on the local village starts to make a name for himself there. Bob who has faced down five separate invasions and driven back armies, slain demons and saved a country from starvation expects that his actions are recognized publicly by NPCs and shouldn't have to play it up for NPCs to recognize him. It's part of what becoming a hero (or antihero) is, and the journey to that point is equally important to what the hero (or antihero) does from there.

[Blindhamsterman]

agree completely with NES...

I am goingto start level capping my events on Friday nights at lvl4 max. Everyone else can go play elsewhere.

This is only a good idea if you also run stuff that no players below 5 can enter into. Otherwise all you do is give the finger to players that have had their characters for year(s).

Infact... if I get round to applying to DM on MS, I'll do exactly that, exclude low levels to balance out your exclusion of high levels if you like?

[DMyles]

100% agree with boom. Low lvs don't want to constantly be 2nd fiddle. We don't want to play house instead of adventure to make it more safe.

Lvl disparity hurts the game just like getting to many players in an adventure does. I wish more dms would tell players to gtfo sometimes, but I understand why they don't and it isn't going to change.

The solution to this problem is mutiple pcs. That way the higher lvl can just go get one of thier lower lvl pcs and everyone can have fun.

[Blindhamsterman]

better idea would be for DMs to run a mix of things, some for low levels (telling high levels its a no-no today sorry) and some for high levels (again, telling the low levels to come back another day)

It's unfair to simply say 'hey you high levels can't use your characters in events, it's not fair on the low levels'
if we dont also have exclusive things for the high levels (something I've never seen in ALFA, lowbies are always welcome, higher levels just do their best to keep them alive in such things)

[Greasemang]

well if the starting level was raised then mayb

[dirsa]

perhaps the problem would weed out itself if appropriate outcomes would be enforced...

let's say a lvl 1 badass wannabe decides to tag along a high level group. why not. just don't cry when a giant smashes you into a pulp that still hurts in fugue...

or let's say bob the badass decides to tag along with a group of lvl 1-2s in their task to kill goblins. and by doing so he earns the ridicule of all eligible job offerers... and probably no more jobs...


in any case. there are many scenarios when a very mixed level party could be ic, or even beneficial. take a bunch of hardass warriors who bring along a level 1 rogue or wizard. because they can't do things the rogue or wizard can. well, ok, it doens't work so well other way around..

anyhow, my point is that dm can simply announce that his target is *some level group* and that the adventure will be run for that. if you want to tag along - do so, but expect consequences.