Ethics and Morality

[Killthorne]

Let's discuss my favorite topic: ethical morality. I bring this up, because in my mind there are two shifty, authoritarian moves that are being made and have been made on the players, that I find are invasive and generally biased.

1) I believe that no Admin has a right to pull up server logs with private messages on it. I don't care if Admin believes players will "doctor" their own log reports to incriminate others. Require two logs from the plaintiff and defendant! Give people instructions on how to set up logging in-case they are truly concerned about being offended/mistreated/harassed by people.

The proof is in the pudding. Things can be noted and recorded. Over time, truth reveals itself. We have a system for strikes and censures, so USE it. Stop talking and making excuses about executive power, and take action against individuals truly causing problems.

The thing is, these messages are private, between two people. I believe no one has a right to read any of it unless it's a violation of conduct, and/or are threatening.

2) Let's outright claim this place as 18+ if there is content that may be deemed questionable by a certain few. We all have our notions of what is right and what is wrong, and they differ from person to person. If cyb0ring is considered an evil to a person and should not be a part of the system because there might be children present, yet that same person does not consider violent roleplay of torture and murder as being rather "not-for-kids," then I really think we should shut it all down and pretend that Faerun is a happy place with unicorns, kittens and $#!#.

Some find detailed, graphic violence much worse than sexual content. Personally, I don't care what floats other people's boats, as long as no one is getting hurt or threatened personally. The moment that someone gets hurt, the decision to act should be based on individuals alone.


--

So before you act and enforce what some people might consider fun, whether it be fantasy-based, gory, detailed violence, or fantasy sexual conduct... think about the whole and the repercussions. I am neither for or against any of what I stated, but if I had to choose? I would pick the graphic detailed torture and murder of PC's and NPC's as being a lot more twisted than two (or three, or twenty-six) people gathered for erotic role-play.

As a disclaimer, this is my heartfelt, honest opinion, only.

~Killy~

[Veilan]

I would pick the graphic detailed torture and murder of PC's and NPC's as being a lot more twisted than two (or three, or twenty-six) people gathered for erotic role-play.

You, sir, sound like a European at heart .

That said, I personally care little what consenting adult players do in private means of communication from time to time. My own taste is that a little sex & crime spice up even a game of DnD.

But that is just the emphasis. A little. Spice. Such things should never be an end in itself, nor even the main ingredient of the soup - just like slaying monsters, where we consider an excess of "farming".

We are at heart still an adventurous roleplay game, and while we suffer a dearth of DMs, the solution cannot be to turn into the Sims or Hobo-hotel. Another problem is if DMs are involved - DMs have a position of authority, and that leads to a great drama potential alone. And let us not even begin with the problems of fairness, favouritism and so on.

So, enjoy all things in measure, and I do not think anyone will object.

I shall grab a bag of popcorn now.

Cheers,

[Killthorne]

Another problem is if DMs are involved - DMs have a position of authority, and that leads to a great drama potential alone. And let us not even begin with the problems of fairness, favouritism and so on.

That happens with or without the questionable content. Whether we like to admit it, or not.

~Killy~

[mr duncan]

2) Let's outright claim this place as 18+ if there is content that may be deemed questionable by a certain few. We all have our notions of what is right and what is wrong, and they differ from person to person. If cyb0ring is considered an evil to a person and should not be a part of the system because there might be children present, yet that same person does not consider violent roleplay of torture and murder as being rather "not-for-kids," then I really think we should shut it all down and pretend that Faerun is a happy place with unicorns, kittens and $#!#.

Some find detailed, graphic violence much worse than sexual content. Personally, I don't care what floats other people's boats, as long as no one is getting hurt or threatened personally. The moment that someone gets hurt, the decision to act should be based on individuals alone.

Well said. This whole PG-13 thing was imposed on ALFA without a vote anyway. We are recreating Faerun, not The Magic Kingdom of Walt Disney


J

[Castano]

the violence and the sex both need a mature rating warnign similar to what GTA uses (Grand theft auto).

As for loggign player tells and chat..it's the host's machine..anything you say on there belongs to teh host. Bear that in mind next time anyone thinks about harrassing one of our players..or demanding cyb0r in exchange for help with statics.

[Hialmar]

I wanted to put a poll about going 18+.

Anyway as we see from my age poll we no longer have "under age" people around here.

Let's discuss this a bit and then have a poll to decide if we:
- go 18+;
- put up a GTA-like sticker;
- strictly enforce PG-13 and ban all form of violence and sex (which might be quite difficult to do technically);

If you see other solutions please post them here.

[Swift]

1) I believe that no Admin has a right to pull up server logs with private messages on it. I don't care if Admin believes players will "doctor" their own log reports to incriminate others. Require two logs from the plaintiff and defendant! Give people instructions on how to set up logging in-case they are truly concerned about being offended/mistreated/harassed by people.

The proof is in the pudding. Things can be noted and recorded. Over time, truth reveals itself. We have a system for strikes and censures, so USE it. Stop talking and making excuses about executive power, and take action against individuals truly causing problems.

Considering I could name one reasonably recent case where a DM was received a censure thanks to a player lying about what happened during a DM event, I cannot say I understand where you are coming from with this. Is such abuse of logs by Admin a frequent thing?

Maybe it needs a disclaimer, but if you are joining a 3rd party server that you know logs everything (surely everyone knows extensive logging takes place, we have been saying so for many years) you should always be careful with what you say.

Let's discuss this a bit and then have a poll to decide if we:
- go 18+;
- put up a GTA-like sticker;

We should say that we are a mature community, rather than explicitly stating we are 18+, as for most people, when they hear "its an 18+ NWN2 community" they immediately think "Sex centered social server". Put a disclaimer on the front page similar to the ESRB/PEGI ratings symbols if we must.

For DMs, nothing will really change. It is already a delicate issue, and most DMs that have been around for awhile know when their plots can stay into more sensitive areas such as sexual abuse/torture/other dark themes. Some players are ok with it, some aren't. You get to know where players will individually draw the line over time.

[CloudDancing]

Content should be:

*server by server basis
*based on DM Personal style (which should be discussed prior to events run by them)
*based on the HDMS personal experiences detailling issues with content
*agreed upon OC before anything is played out (also see a consent waiver for every player agreeded on and signed.

Player to player content? I regret that in my time I used alfa for social RP in the way I did, especially the early part of my career here as a player. Had I known there were other servers to accomodate that aspect of RP or let myself out of the delusion this was an elite server (in regards to player quality of RP and not or truly elite content) I would have taken it there and probably circumvented a few teeny issues.

There is a time and place for everything.

[dirsa]

well.. there's a number of issues all mixed in one here, the best i can tell.

first - the content. i don't think alfa as such has any built in 18+ content. it is clearly pg13. the mature stuff comes from players. let's not re-invent the wheel here, but do what every other online game does: online interactions are not rated

second - privacy of tells. it's a bogus issue. if you typed something into computer, guess what? it can come back and bite you in the ass years later. in any aspect of your life. should it be a common pastime of admin to read my ooc tell conversation with my buddy discussing my hemorrhoids? no. should they be able to pull up any record for administration purposes. abso^%$#lutely!

third - it came up on the thread, and i can only imagine it's the thing that set this whole thing in motion. if someone is moron and asshole enough to demand cyb0r from a newbie player in exchange for helping with quests - their tells should be red by admin, and they should be slapped around until they are silly.

*this post is not yet rated by the forum writing association... *

[hollyfant]

first - the content. i don't think alfa as such has any built in 18+ content. it is clearly pg13.

We have plenty of 18+ content already. Whore NPCs, torture instruments and graphic depictions of death and violence.

online interactions are not rated

It could work, but really I'd prefer to just "pull the stops". That allows not just the players to introduce mature elements, but also the DMs and builders.

second - privacy of tells. it's a bogus issue.

True. Perhaps we should simply make a formal statement that there may be no expectation of privacy on the servers, and clear that up.

if someone is moron and asshole enough to demand cyb0r from a newbie player in exchange for helping with quests - their tells should be red by admin, and they should be slapped around until they are silly.

Yes.... and no. I'm not aware of any specific case (and would rather not be anyway), but we do expect players to interact in an IC manner. If you play a lecherous arse, you should act as a lecherous arse IC. Which of course makes it very hard to distinguish between jerk PCs and jerk players.

In my opinion players should, in any interaction, have a "fade to black" option: a choice not to be confronted with whatever happens next. Even if their PC cannot (or would not) escape it, the player behind that PC may not wish to act out being tortured, or slowly dying or having wild, passionate sex. I've no idea how to formalise that though; the "consent waiver" Cloud suggests seems too much of a blanket "sign away any right to complain afterwards"-deal to me.

[Killthorne]

So I guess some of you believe you should be wire-tapped on your phones, your ISP should log your browsing, and your government should install video cameras everywhere?

Sure, the host has the power to log everything. But should they? No. It's highly unethical and an invasion of privacy. I cannot stress enough how important that is. Watch what I say? I don't think so. Not when it's a private message and meant to be just that. Nothing, save the recipient of my private message, should be biting my arse in terms of a private message, seconds or even years later.

As for someone requesting cyb0r for help with statics from a njublet, that's just plain stupid. Is it wrong? Could be, if said njublet complained. Could be a joke too? We don't know and won't know unless some form of complaint is established and issued.

Considering I could name one reasonably recent case where a DM was received a censure thanks to a player lying about what happened during a DM event, I cannot say I understand where you are coming from with this. Is such abuse of logs by Admin a frequent thing?

Let me turn this around then, so you can see the big picture. What if Admin did abuse the logs? What if a host did doctor up a log to get rid of someone they didn't like? Sounds to me with said censure above that not all the evidence was taken into account. If something sounds like an outright lie, smells like an outright lie... then take note. Slapping censures and strikes around shouldn't be that easy. People have to take responsibility when making complaints.

We should say that we are a mature community, rather than explicitly stating we are 18+, as for most people, when they hear "its an 18+ NWN2 community" they immediately think "Sex centered social server". Put a disclaimer on the front page similar to the ESRB/PEGI ratings symbols if we must.

Putting a M+ rating anywhere with a bit of an explanation is just fine. You probably could include strong language in the list.

My biggest issue here isn't so much anyone's perception of ALFA. It's the privacy issue and what is or isn't enforced in terms of role-play. I think the moment we deny people to do any of the mature content I have brought up, is the moment we lose sight of everything else that might be questionable or mature in theme. Soon ALFA will somehow change the slider in our options menu to not show any blood at all and ban swear words... Like I said, unicorns and kittens.

As for mature themes in general? I have seen possibly the worst and degenerative garbage spew from the fingertips of people under the age of 18, online. If you do not believe me, get an account for an MMO. Or log into youtube. Or pretty much anywhere, where there is access to a social internet setting.

~Killy~

[kmj2587]

So I guess some of you believe you should be wire-tapped on your phones, your ISP should log your browsing, and your government should install video cameras everywhere?

ALFA is not the US federal government. ALFA is not even an entity in its own right, so comparison with companies monitoring internet activities when people are at work isn't even particularly apt. The host box and its contents(excluding licensed IP) belong to the host. You have NO right to privacy in this instance.

Our hosts provide us with valuable real world services on their dime. The ultimate issue this stems from is wanting to limit a host's liability in the event that our "mature" content causes some minor's parents to come unhinged. Hosts should feel free to do whatever they feel necessary to protect themselves, whether that includes logging tells to spot problematic behavior before it becomes an issue, or whatever else makes them comfortable. Hosting is already a time and resource intensive task, and we should not make it a more onerous burden by trying to restrict their use of their own property.

[fluffmonster]

This is not, nor should there be, any reasonable expectation of privacy here. This is not private space, this is a group interaction space that one needs to volunteer to participate in. And really, if we are talking about communication that one would be personnaly embarrassed to have others know about (like OOC cyb0r propositions), its best if it just doesn't happen anyway.

[danielmn]

Do I support players rights to do what they want? Sure, as long as it isn't hurtin anyone. Do I cyborz? No, unless you listen to Zelks drivle Do I think Cyborz has a place IG? Sure, for other people if that's what they choose to do. Not how I'd choose to spend my own gaming time, but knock yourself out. Should cyborz be exchanged for help in static quests with newbs? Use a little friggin sense, people...not that I think that this would happen at any point anyway.

Do I supports teh privacy? Meh, I don't say anything in tells that I wouldn't also say in public. That's the best way to handle teh internetz. I keep logs, other players keep logs, the host keeps logs. I have no problem with any of those resources being used. I try to limit tells IG anyway because it usually disrupts my play. Usually tells are useful for meeting up with others, or helping the new guy find his way around and getting him plugged in, not for talking about personal problems or having Mary Jane Rottencrotch over last night and what you did. The later is best discussed in private tells on irc anyway...or #alfa for that matter.

[Killthorne]

No, ALFA is not the U.S. government, nor Charter Communications, nor Verizon Wireless, or Google email.

But what you're saying is that Google has every right to read my emails... because I certainly do not pay for my email, nor the server it's stored on. I completely understand everyone's viewpoints that it's on the host's dime and that privacy on the internet is a variable based on the medium. I am telling you though, that it's not ethical. I do not care about the power one has over their own server. Like any profession, hobbyist or no, one should take into account some level of ethical standards.

If it's alright to log people's private messages in-game, then there is justification for the right to take private messages in IRC and post them for all to see. You are right, ALFA is no government, but it tries to act like one. It states ( or used to) in our "constitution" somewhere, I believe, that private messages in IRC should remain private... so why not in-game?


~Killy~