Permadeath Discussion - Answers Needed

[Jfis]

Hello ALFA members. My name is Jakob, I'm an Msc student in Media Technology and Games at ITU Copenhagen, and I'm currently doing some research which hopefully will end out in a solid paper on the subject of permadeath.

In that regard, I'd be thrilled if some of you could help me out by answering and/or discussing a few questions in this thread, however short or long your answers might be, I'm happy with any contributions.

I'm looking for answers to the following:
1) Would you still play in ALFA if there was no character loss, and your character was, in some form, guaranteed a resurrection after each and every death?
2) Do you prefer playing in ALFA over playing the popular MMOs?
3) Would you be more drawn to the popular MMOs if they included permadeath?
4) Pick one of these words to describe yourself when you play in ALFA: Achiever, Killer, Socaliser, or Explorer.*
5) Any other comments, reflections or thoughts you have about the importance (or non-importance) of permadeath in relation to your roleplaying and gaming experiences and preferences.

*Most roleplayers would probably fall within the socialiser category. If you wish to know more about these terms before deciding, you can read more here in Richard A. Bartle's article: http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm

To start with, please copy/paste the above 5 points and answer as briefly or as thorougly as you like. Any contributions are welcome so please do add any further discussion, input and so forth if you feel like it.

Thanks in advance if you answered, if you did, you have been a great help in my research. Lastly, a huge thank you for allowing me access and posting priviliges here. I really appreciate it a lot.

[dergon darkhelm]

1) Would you still play in ALFA if there was no character loss, and your character was, in some form, guaranteed a resurrection after each and every death?

No - permadeath is a major factor in my finding a "home" in ALFA. People behave differently when they can "respawn" their caharacters and it brings me a sense of cheapened meaning to the storyline
2) Do you prefer playing in ALFA over playing the popular MMOs?

I only play in ALFA. I play no other game. I have rarely dabbled in other "spin off" communities (Exodus in NWN2 and Earthspurs in NWN1)
3) Would you be more drawn to the popular MMOs if they included permadeath?

Probably....vecause that would cut down on the number of Yahoos playing in the MMOs
4) Pick one of these words to describe yourself when you play in ALFA:

Achiever-

I definately put RL effort in achieving my PCs in-character goals. What those goals are varies by who I am playing, but "achiever" fits without a doubt.


5) Any other comments, reflections or thoughts you have about the importance (or non-importance) of permadeath in relation to your roleplaying and gaming experiences and preferences.


As I stated above, the presence of permadeath is a MAJOR reason I have been drawn to and remain in ALFA. The notion that a single stupid decision could lead to permanent loss of a character makes people think twice about being foohardy. This then in turn makes heroic acts seems all that more heroic becasue of the "real" risk involved.

[Mick]

I'm looking for answers to the following:
1) Would you still play in ALFA if there was no character loss, and your character was, in some form, guaranteed a resurrection after each and every death?
2) Do you prefer playing in ALFA over playing the popular MMOs?
3) Would you be more drawn to the popular MMOs if they included permadeath?
4) Pick one of these words to describe yourself when you play in ALFA: Achiever, Killer, Socaliser, or Explorer.*
5) Any other comments, reflections or thoughts you have about the importance (or non-importance) of permadeath in relation to your roleplaying and gaming experiences and preferences.

1. No, not if it was guaranteed after every death.
2. Have not played on any popular MMO, but I can say from what I have seen that they do not appeal to me.
3. No.
4. Pretty limited selection, since they do not include my own preferred description: Storyteller. If I have to pick one of yours, I can't pick one. How about a combination of achiever, socializer and explorer.
5. Too many thoughts here to easily convey in a short post. I hate long posts, so I will leave it at that.

[Veilan]

Hello ALFA members. My name is Jakob, I'm an Msc student in Media Technology and Games at ITU Copenhagen, and I'm currently doing some research which hopefully will end out in a solid paper on the subject of permadeath.

In that regard, I'd be thrilled if some of you could help me out by answering and/or discussing a few questions in this thread, however short or long your answers might be, I'm happy with any contributions.

I'm looking for answers to the following:
1) Would you still play in ALFA if there was no character loss, and your character was, in some form, guaranteed a resurrection after each and every death?

Unlikely. ALFA is about the immersion, realism, and easy suspension of disbelief - toy bunnies can be played elsewhere. ALFA has characters, because they are mortal.

2) Do you prefer playing in ALFA over playing the popular MMOs?

Apples and pears. If forced to choose between ALFA and any or all other MMORPGS, I would choose ALFA. However, ALFA is a product catering to a different market / taste / desire than an MMORPG - it is not an either or choice.

3) Would you be more drawn to the popular MMOs if they included permadeath?

Not likely, it would depend on the whole system. Same as now, but perma-death? Does not function for the game concept of almost all MMORPGs out there, and would diminish their playability. Permadeath alone is not a discriminating property, but rather the logical conclusion of a system that puts simulationism and immersion first.

4) Pick one of these words to describe yourself when you play in ALFA: Achiever, Killer, Socaliser, or Explorer.*

Explorer.

5) Any other comments, reflections or thoughts you have about the importance (or non-importance) of permadeath in relation to your roleplaying and gaming experiences and preferences.

Perma-death is of major importantance to ensure that characters are more than toy-bunnies, and that real bonding and identification can take place. It makes them unique and valuable, lends them depth and helps ensure that decisions are made in an IC fashion, rather than the player's desire of action / advancement (to which MMORPGs can cater better). It is a necessary part of a project like ALFA that places emphasis on an immersive and "realistic" simulation of a game world.

Cheers,

[Hialmar]

I'm looking for answers to the following:
1) Would you still play in ALFA if there was no character loss, and your character was, in some form, guaranteed a resurrection after each and every death?
2) Do you prefer playing in ALFA over playing the popular MMOs?
3) Would you be more drawn to the popular MMOs if they included permadeath?
4) Pick one of these words to describe yourself when you play in ALFA: Achiever, Killer, Socaliser, or Explorer.*
5) Any other comments, reflections or thoughts you have about the importance (or non-importance) of permadeath in relation to your roleplaying and gaming experiences and preferences.

1- Probably not but I can't say for sure. For me the attraction in ALFA is not permadeath but DMs.
2- It depends on the time I have for playing. Currently I mostly play on MMOs because I don't have enough time to be able to participate to regular DMed sessions. If I had the time I'd rather play in ALFA.
3- I wouldn't play them. An MMO without a DM and with permadeath is some kind of nightmare to me. You can't play hack and slash just to have fun and you have no DMed RP.
4- Socialiser
5- Permadeath is clearly not what is important for me. DMs are. RP without DMs is sterile in the long term because it is only socialization. Which is good but definitely not RP.

[Killthorne]

1) No.
2) Yes.
3) No. Not enough immersion.
4) Probably going to screw up your data here: All of those things.
5) No further comments.

~Killy~

[NESchampion]

1) No.
2) Yes.
3) No. Not enough immersion.
4) Probably going to screw up your data here: All of those things.
5) No further comments.

~Killy~

This sums up my position as well.

[Audark]

1) No, you cannot accurately roleplay a character if you can charge headlong into every battle with no fear of the outcome. Real people are scared of death, some may be brave, some cowardly but everyone fears death and it is part of what makes the characters real.

2) I do not play other MMOs, only ALFA. I've never been a fan of pay-to-play gameplay, though it does seem to be on the rise (and alfa itself requires donations to fund its operations). More than that, ALFA is a closed community, accessible by application only, it is by definition a niche, and though we sometimes debate the quality of the RP that results, it is still far superior, in my opinion, to any open server MMO.

3) Probably not, I like the depth of dungeons and dragons, and the 3.5 ruleset. The history and depth of written work available beyond the game itself allows characters and worlds to be created of immense depth that is simply lacking in many MMOs.

4) Explorer

5) Permadeath is one of the crucial things that helps us remain 'In-Character', we as players cannot die, but after playing a character for many months or a year, people feel real anxiety about losing all they have gained, and all the RP they have witnessed. This anxiety may not be akin to a real fear of death, but I know for certain that myself and others have had their heart rate increase in anticipation or fear in a big fight or the like. Permadeath makes the world more 'real' and immersive, and without it, no one could have the same connection with their characters or with anyone else in game.

[Melody]

1) Would you still play in ALFA if there was no character loss, and your character was, in some form, guaranteed a resurrection after each and every death?

Hmm.. perhaps, though probably not. I think ALPHA would loose a lot of what makes it special. If the characters were always resurrected then you wouldn't create new characters, and there wouldn't be any true endings to the stories. Some of my character's deaths have been as poignant a story as their lives were. In other cases the death of characters important to my characters have turned the story in directions I wouldn't have otherwise imagined were possible.

2) Do you prefer playing in ALFA over playing the popular MMOs?

My husband and I played World of Warcraft and City of Heroes among many many others. I missed ALPHA, its players, and the stories created from it enough to come back to it. Yes, I do indeed prefer ALFA over any other MMO being played today.

3) Would you be more drawn to the popular MMOs if they included permadeath?

No, not really. They would serve to make the MMO harder, but harder isn't what I'm interested in. I'm more interested in permadeath adding to the reality of the storytelling world. I haven't seen any other MMOs that had the ability to tell a story the way ALPHA is set up to.

4) Pick one of these words to describe yourself when you play in ALFA: Achiever, Killer, Socaliser, or Explorer.*

Socaliser easily.

5) Any other comments, reflections or thoughts you have about the importance (or non-importance) of permadeath in relation to your roleplaying and gaming experiences and preferences.

As I said before, permadeath lends reality to the story telling world. I can see where other player types would enjoy other aspects of it, this is the aspect of permadeath that is most important to me. Every story has an ending.. and permadeath kinda helps guarantee that.

[darrenhfx]

1) Would you still play in ALFA if there was no character loss, and your character was, in some form, guaranteed a resurrection after each and every death?

No, I've played on servers that offer insta-rez's with and without some form of penalty and it takes away a dimension of the game. I think the playerbase would be quite different if we had such a system here, and I came here because I like these folks and the way they play. That being said, my toons have had some really stupid deaths on ALFA and I wished for a miracle rez after each one.

2) Do you prefer playing in ALFA over playing the popular MMOs?

Tough one to answer with a yes or no, it's my perception that logging in to ALFA usually means a longer time commitment is involved v. MMO's, so they serve different purposes. In addition, of course there are a great variety of MMO's out there and many cover a different genre than is found here in ALFA, so I may wish to get all spacey and play EVE for awhile or perhaps play in our own unique world here at ALFA... so a long-winded way of saying 'it depends'.

3) Would you be more drawn to the popular MMOs if they included permadeath?

My experience with MMO's are limited to just a few, but I could be, I'm thinking of WoW in particular, and again it would be quite a different playing experience if WoW had permadeath. The main draw would be the size of the virtual world in WoW.

4) Pick one of these words to describe yourself when you play in ALFA: Achiever, Killer, Socaliser, or Explorer.*

I tend to be an explorer.

5) Any other comments, reflections or thoughts you have about the importance (or non-importance) of permadeath in relation to your roleplaying and gaming experiences and preferences.

I can reflect on some of the in-game moments that have occurred AFTER a character dies and the effect on his/her comrades. Others above have mentioned the importance of character development and coping with the death or near death of friends and fellow adventurers is definitely a significant aspect to character development in ALFA. I've not encountered PvP as a player but I'm sure the prospect of having only one toon walk away from a fight serves to heighten the experience for all as well.

[oldgrayrogue]

1) Would you still play in ALFA if there was no character loss, and your character was, in some form, guaranteed a resurrection after each and every death?

No, not if respawn applied to every death. I would however consider playing in ALFA if there were a different implementation of permadeath than that which we currently utilize. At a minimum, I would want to have permadeath apply to any CvC encounter and to deaths that result from DMd content.

2) Do you prefer playing in ALFA over playing the popular MMOs?

I suppose so, since I don't play any MMOs. What I have heard about games like WOW is not appealing to me. They seem like just an endless hack and slash grind for wealth and XP without any real roleplay or story telling involved.

3) Would you be more drawn to the popular MMOs if they included permadeath?

Not necessarily. The focus would have to be on interactive roleplay and DMd content. Permadeath is not the deciding factor for me.

4) Pick one of these words to describe yourself when you play in ALFA:

I think my play style falls into all four categories. I generally set goals for my characters and enjoy social interaction and roleplay with other players. I also enjoy confrontational roleplay with others, either through intrigue or direct CvC encounters, but not simply for the sake of "killing" them and taking their loot, but rather if it is story or "goal" oriented. Finally, I love the visual stimulation of a well built and graphic computerized world, and enjoy exploring and discovering new and even hidden parts of it. All in all though I think I would probably best be described as Mick's fifth category of "Storyteller." In my play in ALFA I see myself and other players as characters in a good fantasy novel in which we all write and act out the story together. In some ways it is more appealing than reading a good book because it is dynamic and interactive: the decisions that you and other players make influence the outcome. The story is written as the game plays out with everyone's individual ideas, goal and stories coalescing into something that can be truly grand, entertaining and often surprising.


5) Any other comments, reflections or thoughts you have about the importance (or non-importance) of permadeath in relation to your roleplaying and gaming experiences and preferences.

As others have stated, permadeath adds depth and immersion to roleplay. The consequences induce realism into decision making. The risk of death in combat situations can result in a real adrenaline rush of excitement as well which I enjoy. I think without any permadeath possibility immersion and excitement, especially in combat, might be diminished. However, there are also negatives to permadeath that detract from the experience in my view. Death of a character at early levels before their story has a chance to develop can be a real drag, both for the player and for DMs who have invested a lot of time and effort into developing plots and storylines to roleplay with said character. It can also truncate RP early on in the game experience to focus primarily on socialization and survival rather than a simulation of a fantasy adventure story. Thus, my ultimate preference for a multiplayer fantasy roleplaying game would likely be one which employs some type of modified permadeath rule, or other mechanism, that incorporates the positives of a permadeath setting but also alleviates the negatives that result. Alternatives like a higher starting level, a "mulligan" rule (i.e. you get one respawn within a given level range) and other alternatives have been often debated within ALFA, but with no real consensus among its membership.

Finally, I would ask that you please provide us with a copy of your finished work. I am not sure what the direction of your study and paper are, but perhaps we can use the results to provide a better gaming experience in ALFA.

[danielmn]

1) Would you still play in ALFA if there was no character loss, and your character was, in some form, guaranteed a resurrection after each and every death?

No. As stated previously, the ending of a character is just as important as the beginning of a character. The aspect of death brings a certain amount of rp in and of itself with it. Weather it be rping the loss of a fellow companion, or that insaine fear PC's get right before a battle and their ability to either express it or choke it down and hide it, it is an essential aspect that I enjoy. Nevermind the rush that I as a player get when my PC is on the verge of death, and I know there is no coming back.

2) Do you prefer playing in ALFA over playing the popular MMOs?

I've played a few other NWN servers, many of which were not perma-death, before finding alfa. I can't say that I've invested any other time in MMO's... ALFA fits my needs fine in that category. That's not to say I don't enjoy my Starcraft II or Modern Warefar or MAG, cause I do enjoy other modal platforms.

3) Would you be more drawn to the popular MMOs if they included permadeath?

I don't think so, as stated previously, a part of the draw here is the DM's as well as DMing. If ALFA lacked DM's, I would certainly roam to find another place to play. DM stories is what it's all about!

4) Pick one of these words to describe yourself when you play in ALFA: Achiever, Killer, Socaliser, or Explorer.*

Explorer. I've had whole PC concepts revolving aroud exploring especially when we were on the NWN1 platform. I personally find great enjoyment in seeing new places and things, partly because I myself have built within the toolset and I LOVE to see what other people can do within the toolset...it def. gives me pause in thought when I see a new place. I love when builders do something outside of the box and I grin to myself because I truely appreciate inventiveness within the toolset.

5) Any other comments, reflections or thoughts you have about the importance (or non-importance) of permadeath in relation to your roleplaying and gaming experiences and preferences.

I've recieved one Raise for a PC in my five years here. Otherwise, my pc's have gone splat when their time was due and I have always enjoyed coming up with a new concept to play. On the whole, I love being challenged, I've had my pc near death three seperate times in the last two months and it has always been a thrill.

[JaydeMoon]

'm looking for answers to the following:
1) Would you still play in ALFA if there was no character loss, and your character was, in some form, guaranteed a resurrection after each and every death?

This questions is a bit weighted, I think, and the definitions of the words used define my answer. I'll expound more in questions 5. Anyway, guaranteed a resurrection after each and every 'death, the answer is no, I do not think I would play in ANY setting where that was a guarantee.

2) Do you prefer playing in ALFA over playing the popular MMOs?

Yes, hands down. I prefer 'serious' RP servers where the purpose is grand storytelling with risk and excitement where people get into character. It's a great median between the run amuck hack and slash instant gratification worlds of most MMOs and the do nothing but take on a persona and have soap opera dramas of some purely social servers. To be clear there are other NWN1 and 2 servers besides ALFA where you can find this.

3) Would you be more drawn to the popular MMOs if they included permadeath?

Permadeath as ALFA has it? Probably not, and any commercial MMO that included permadeath as ALFA does would fail.

4) Pick one of these words to describe yourself when you play in ALFA: Achiever, Killer, Socaliser, or Explorer.*

All except 'killer'

5) Any other comments, reflections or thoughts you have about the importance (or non-importance) of permadeath in relation to your roleplaying and gaming experiences and preferences.

Without risk, your experience is simply shallower that it would be with risk. I think that 'permadeath' is important and that when your character dies, they are dead and the only way to return them to life should be through the game mechanics which limit resurrection by price and availability of priests (or whatever background-centric method there is of bringing people back from the dead).

However, ALFA's version of permadeath has three factors which I believe hurt it:

First, the definition of 'death' being quite literally any time you fall under -10 hit points means that there is no leeway for the sheerly random events that can kill your character with absolutely no relevance to any greater storyline. People develop characters with intricate backstories and the idea that these are the adventurers of our world, larger than life with destinies to fulfill. Then one day while wandering on the road between a city and a keep, they run into a goblin/wolf/zombie and are killed. How did that benefit any story? It doesn't.

Redefining how death comes about so that these random acts do not actually kill your character can make a difference in retention of new players for whom permadeath is far too harsh, but also cater to the sensibilities of those who need risk to find value in their character. Employing a different and harsh penalty for falling to a random spawn keeps 'risk' involved without potentially destroying or negatively impacting stories for no real reason. Actual death occurs during certain circumstances (like during actual DMed play or during CvC). These keeps deaths from being random while still imposing penalties for falling to enemies, keeping players from recklessly charging enemies just as they wouldn't recklessly charge them if they knew they were going to die.

The second issue with permadeath is the awareness that a character and story have had a lot invested into it once characters reach a certain level. There becomes a sort of 'gunshyness' for DMs to place characters in danger. DMs have to make decisions regarding tech rezzes which can, to players, feel unfair (especially when two characters die in the same encounter and one gets a 'free rez' and the other doesn't). There is fallout from that that a lot of DMs simply do not want to deal with. Players invest so much time into their characters by mid levels that killing them off or challenging them can cause, instead of fun, bad feelings and negative emotions. Also, if a DM is running a balanced party with 4 level 9 characters and one of them dies, integrating the player back in as a level 1 becomes that much more difficult. The result is that the DM might be inclined to treat the players with kid gloves, reducing the dangers or even by introduing various deus ex machina to keep players from dying. This can be anything from having a high level NPC walk around with the group (recently saw a lvl 9 NPC crushing encounters with a group of four PCs who topped out at lvl 6) or by creating some environmental reason why the PC survived (recently saw a DM 'knock' zombies off a random bridge before they killed a PC, allowing the PC to hang on with a well rolled reflex save) or any other number of situations.

The third issue with ALFA's permadeath is the inherent reality that higher level characters generally have the means to resurrect themselves. By that I mean that they have enough gear/consumables on them to make paying the price a relative non-issue. The result is that lvl 1-4 die a lot and higher levels less often. What ends up happening is that a popular upper mid level character is very nearly guaranteed a resurrection (or at least a raise) after nearly any death. Especially when you combine the second factor, which will greatly limit the chances of death, so that characters generally have plenty of time to stock back up on gold and consumables before they might die again. Obviously this only applies to characters whom the player is inclined to have raised. There are certainly players who prefer not to raise their characters due to their own personal feelings towards permadeath, but the option is very definitely there.

I personally feel that these three things create a sort of 'broken' permadeath system. I have further thoughts and ideas about how to respond to some of these issues. I don't think they are necessarily right for ALFA, which has a tendency to cling to its 'pillars' with dedicated single-mindedness, but ideas, I have them.

[Zelknolf]

I reject Bartle's taxonomy out of hand, and answer with Edwards' GNS theory! I am a narrativist gamer. Muahaha!

1) No. As an action game, ALFA is terrible. As is the Aurora engine. If it were structured like an action game, I would play a game that is better at being an action game.
2) Yes. But you already have citations for player loyalty to MMOs. Or I hope you do.
3) No. But you already have citations for player loyalty to MMOs. Or I hope you do.
4) I think that you'd get better responses if you made note that people who kill monsters are achievers, that people who PvP with reckless abandon are killers, and noted that the "explorer," "killer," and "achiever" gaming profiles as described by Bartle would, technically, be bannable if it characterized any player in ALFA. I would strongly suggest that any results gathered from this question be taken with a grain of salt, and now that I've said this, I will insist myself a "socializer" and know full-well that my response will be stricken from any analysis (as it well should!)
Also, DMs are all "killers" by Bartle's theory. Hilarious implications there, but mostly owed to the raw broadness of the classifications.
5) See #4. Bartle really wasn't writing with DMs in mind. He was writing with ye olde MUDs/ MOOs/ MUSHs in mind.

[Dorn]

You can do amasers in games? fark me! did i ever go into the wrong trade!!!!

1) Would you still play in ALFA if there was no character loss, and your character was, in some form, guaranteed a resurrection after each and every death?

No. Contradicts the term 'role-play'. Would make it an 'action' server with added conversation and tavern simulation if prema was gone.

2) Do you prefer playing in ALFA over playing the popular MMOs?

Yes. Partly for permadeath, partly as there is less grind, mostly for the level of RP.

3) Would you be more drawn to the popular MMOs if they included permadeath?

Yes.

4) Pick one of these words to describe yourself when you play in ALFA: Achiever, Killer, Socaliser, or Explorer.*

Achiever. Always want my chat to be lord of the town, mechant prince, high priest, warlord or something.

5) Any other comments, reflections or thoughts you have about the importance (or non-importance) of permadeath in relation to your roleplaying and gaming experiences and preferences.


not right now.