A Land Far Away

Okay.

I'm going to bring some some subject that would likely have some dramatic replies, it was discussed a year ago in a thread "life insurance" , but i want to sharpen the question and see how people feel with it. And yes, current IC events were contributed to post this subject now.

IC raise dead - how do you feel about it? do you support it? or against it? or depending the situation?

Most of us "enjoyed" from it in the passed, and likely would continue to do so in the future.


Lately, i might (wrongly?) starting to believe that option to raise dead lead to act in strange(?!?) IC ways.


How so?

For example, two of my long lasting characters were PVPed to death. The "raise dead" option was actually a factor to consider from the the killers side. The mission was not only to "kill" the character, but also to eliminated the possibility of raising the character back. (Greatly increasing their own risk in the process)

Personally, i find it a bit odd.


Can it be that the sole option of raising the dead drive characters to believe that bringing back PCs is only matter of wealth and certain level npc or pc cleric agreeing to perform the ritual?

My opinion is , that if killers start taking raise dead as factor in killing their victims, and people travel around days with corpses looking for clerics who will do them 'favor' for the right price....something is lost along the way, no?


I can only compare ALFA to FR novels.(And i havn''t read Sembia novels which i've heard raise dead exists in)

I've asked it before, do you see someone killing Drizzt and then thinking how to prevent him from being raised? or Drizzt's friends wandering around the realms with his corpse and looking for someone to raise him?

Do we lose some of the perma-death feeling if raise dead is basically 5000 gold worth diamond and 9+ level cleric?

How would you feel if a DM playing a villain would abduct the corpse of your character to prevent him from being raised? (as it seems to be leading logic for PCs and there is no reason why NPCs would not think the same).


How "Epic" do you think raise dead should be? if it should be epic at all?

Would you consider to give up on the raise dead option?

I had a whole answer ready, all written out.

And then I read the original post back, and decided it has too many references to in-game and recent events to be a safe jump-off point for a detached discussion on what is otherwise am interesting subject.

Maybe later.

"Lately, i might (wrongly?) starting to believe that option to raise dead lead to act in strange(?!?) IC ways.


How so?

For example, two of my long lasting characters were PVPed to death. The "raise dead" option was actually a factor to consider from the the killers side. The mission was not only to "kill" the character, but also to eliminated the possibility of raising the character back. (Greatly increasing their own risk in the process)

Personally, i find it a bit odd."

I will answer to the second case for the above, as the IC actions are so old now as to be almost irrelevant as far as Meta goes. When I step into the shoes of my PC, I tend to put aside player wishes, often to my own pc's detriment. Raises as a factor have never played a strong part in my PC's motivations in his actions. As for the PC's motivation at that point, the body was retrieved so that relevant information could be learned by NPC's about what that particular PC had done/been up to. The spell Speak with Dead has been used on numerous occations IG during DMed events, in front of my own PC, therefore it is safe to say my PC knows that through whatever means a body can be questioned after it's life force has left it, nevermind that he can cast (mechanically at least, he's never cast it IG and would likely need to watch a ceremony in which the spell was perfromed closer before attempting it himself)the spell himself. The mission wasn't to kill the PC, as I've stated a few times before, but to bring the PC before the authorities to be questioned. Since the PC refused this voluntarily, he was to be brought in against his will (subdued). Since this option did not work either, the next corse of action was to retrieve the body so that the authorities could use the spell to find out what the PC had done (and thereby clear my own PC's name for his death.) At no point did the second pc's chance of being raised or rezzed come into the picture as far as my pc's actions and motivations were concerned. The mission in its entirety (if my PC even came across your old PC, something that had a very slim chance of happening as my PC wasn't actively looking for yours, but did happen nontheless) was to retrieve your PC, hopefully alive, if not, dead, for questioning reguarding IC deaths, not to prevent the raise/rez of said PC.

"IC raise dead - how do you feel about it? do you support it? or against it? or depending the situation?"

I support the option. If it weren't an option, the spells that allow one to do such would not be on the table. I can say that my current PC will never be raised or rezzed, as it is almost unheard of, due to religious doctrine and belief that Moradin reforges the dwarven soul after it has departed the body, until such time as the spirit is ready to join the Halls of the Mordinsamman (a quasi reincarnation belief stated in old second edition manuals) for the race of the dwarves. Unless there is urgent and immediate need for the soul to be rejoined with the body, it never happens within dwarven culture, and I can't see anything whatsoever being important enough for my pc to be brought back from his rightful place beside his own God.

"Would you consider to give up on the raise dead option?"

I'd have no problem with raise/rez being off of the table. Beyond tech rezzes due to gliches, I believe I've had a total of 1 raise deads in the last 5 or 6 years I've played ALFA. I've had it offered on several other occations than that 1 time, but have refused the option each of those times, since it just didn't make sense for it to happen ICLY. Heck, During nwn1's last breaths I went to play on the Daggerdale server, one of the specific reasons was they did not allow raises or rezzes on that server. I have no particular problem with the option being left as is, or taken away, as it has affected me very little in the past (and I went through a multitude of PC's in nwn1 and enjoyed them all) or the present.

You say you'll never have your dwarf raised because of a religious issue. What if someone else who is playing a dwarf would use that option just because it exists? would it have any consequences ?

I'm guessing that most PCs who are being raised are high level, lets say behind level five. Most of them have some personal wealth, and few friends that together can recruit 5k coins without too much problem.

At this point, does it become only technical issue? finding the cleric and recruiting the coins?


Also, if there is a desire to raise the deads, should we see more low level characters raised as well? or at least friends of low level characters pursuit the option of bringing them back? the desire for bringing back the dead is IC, and levels are OOC.


Also, another interesting question,IC - what make a bunch of friends of certain person trying to bring him back? i mean , they are not going to try and bring back every friend they lost along they way, so why X and not Y?

There really is not a mechanic in which to measure what makes some characters more meaningful and important to their friends and companions, and others less meaningful. Much like in life or any well told piece of fiction that mirrors life, relationships between characters are a fluid thing, events and conversations, the unexpected and countless other things all way in on what one character will do or not do for another.

As far as how I feel about Raising the Dead, I feel the same way about the spell and it's use as I do about CvC. I feel that both Raise Dead and CvC are two very potent ingredients that can be used to richly enchant the stories being created in game amongst the various player characters and the DMs. Some times there exist a cause and sense of duty so strong that one must return from the beyond to see such carried out, and other times there are fatal enemies made through misunderstandings, conflicts of interest, and even good old fashion greed,fear, jealous, or hatred. I also think and feel that both Raise Dead and CvC when committed by a OOC desire to see a character returned or another character slain is about the lamest thing imaginable.

For example......

Alex Right is a champion of the light and he alone can defeat the evils that plague the lands and so those in need set out to see him returned to the lands of the living so the great champion can save the lands one last time.

Mal Wrong and Val Evil are two ruthless men who have been competing over a promotion within the local thieves guild for to long, and now only quicker witted and most ruthless of the two will be promoted while the other finds himself sent to his patron.

V.S.

Bob Joe is like 7th level and has all sorts of cool stuff and I really rather I not have to make a new PC and start all over at level 1, so I really hope he gets rezzed.

I hate Dan because he makes jokes about my mom, so I am going to look for an opportunity to either kill his character or get his characters killed every chance I get.



The feelings and opinions are mine alone and I am sure someone or someones here likely disagree Rorax, and they may believe differently. They are wrong.

"Lately, i might (wrongly?) starting to believe that option to raise dead lead to act in strange(?!?) IC ways.


How so?

Death can be a rather traumatic experience and if the PC chooses to return, sure, there might be some changes in character. One minute you're in the Fugue Plane on your way to your patron deity's realm or even in your deity's realm, the next back on smelly, meaty, and painful Faerun... and by your choice. I think the reason to come back should be justified logically and purposefully, in my opinion.

Also, you lose a level. And if first level, a constitution point. That's gotta feel pretty crappy when you return.

For example, two of my long lasting characters were PVPed to death. The "raise dead" option was actually a factor to consider from the the killers side. The mission was not only to "kill" the character, but also to eliminated the possibility of raising the character back. (Greatly increasing their own risk in the process)

Personally, i find it a bit odd.

As much I like the FR novels as well and rarely see raising of the dead ( except maybe Bruenor?), if your enemies want you dead and to scatter your ashes so you never return, that's just the way it goes. I don't think it is a commonplace tactic though and it really shouldn't be a prominent post-thought process to any sort of death. People die in FR all the time and 98% of the time, no one is raising the dead. They just die.

Can it be that the sole option of raising the dead drive characters to believe that bringing back PCs is only matter of wealth and certain level npc or pc cleric agreeing to perform the ritual?

If there are means, then I don't see any problem with it. Players who are doing everything in their power to prevent themselves from dying permanently ( like amassing wealth over time or collecting diamond shards, or whatever) should either have a deep IC reason to do so, or go find a non-permadeath world to play in. There's this notion I get from reading the books and the lore that death is considered a inevitability, whether by sickness, age, or the sword. Death also seems to be rather a permanent effect with no one ever saying: "Oh hey, don't worry, we'll just go down to the resurrection market and get him back to normal!" Like I said, anytime I've seen anyone in novels and lore raised back to life was over a truly compelling reason and purpose. But again, if there are means to do so, let it be.

"Would you consider to give up on the raise dead option?"

No, because it's possible. Raises should be very rare and for a very damn good reason. For me personally, I pretty much have given up on it already. Every character past Arakiel was a one-shot character. I didn't want to be raised. I just consider my character's deaths as part of the story and that they would probably be more blissful in some plane based on their faith. This isn't an arcade game where you just plunk more quarters in for a continue.

Long time ago when I first started playing ALFA at live, I died a few times, tech rezzes and my own fault included... and was raised from the dead. After a few times of being raised, you really feel like a cheating [insert derogatory expletive here] while there are poor PC's ( I was always poor though ) and true-to-permadeath PC's out there doing it the right way by staying dead.

Heck, During nwn1's last breaths I went to play on the Daggerdale server, one of the specific reasons was they did not allow raises or rezzes on that server

Hehe dan.. it's not that we didn't allow them...( I think long before you came along there were raises going on because the rulebook had yet to establish definite guidelines), it's just there was no priest ever high enough on the server to do it. But there were tech rezzes.. and fudging of bad deaths due to DM underestimated encounters.

All-in-all, this is a permadeath world. The gritty nature of it all, despite the beliefs of anyone who thinks it is a cruel and terrible system, give characters more depth and makes it far more serious when swords are drawn. Otherwise we could just keep plunking quarters in and all of it would be silly business.

~Killy~

[danielmn] Garlus Ironbeard: [Tell] Barrin wasn't going to let garlus take the body, and Garlus wasn't going to take the risk of him being raised man.

I have to retract the previous statement, as it appears not letting a PC be raised or rezzed by another affiliate of his own faith did play a part in Garlus's actions (though I don't even remember stating such, it is clear in the logs). Interestingly enough, I suppose this is something I have to keep a firm track on when I'm playing, so as not to let the possibility of raise or rez enter any equations (that is, of coarse, until he sees old enemies he kills walking around again, and then changes his attitude)

Oh heck yeah Dan.. if enemies start popping back up like a bad Marvel comic villain... time to obliterate them.

~Killy~

lulz, yeah, there was already a previous time where a major evil NPC had been stripped bare and imprisoned, and had a ring of teleportation shoved up his bum and escaped jail...

Soooo....what does Garlus now do with prisoners to prevent that escape?

time for the old airport check..... (detect magick, and see if the bumm glows.)

anyways, back to the OP points...

"You say you'll never have your dwarf raised because of a religious issue. What if someone else who is playing a dwarf would use that option just because it exists? would it have any consequences ?"

No idea aside from my own PC's veiw, that if the kin was brought back for no legitimate reason, that my PC, being a cleric of the Keeper of the Dwarven Dead, would likely ostracize the act, the preist whom performed the act (would likely bring the matter to the attention of the elders of whatever Hold the act was performed near or in) and would likley want nothing to do whatsoever with the PC from then on, feeling that his own God had been denied his due. But that's about all the consequences I as a player of a PC can muster.

Raise dead is part of D&D and should be part of the game. However, IMO the decision to raise a PC from the dead is usually more about the wants and desires of those the PC left behind than the PC. Any player who is raised should remember to play the decision to come back and the effect on the PC if they do come back in an IC manner. Raise dead should not be used simply as a means to OOC get a PC back who has died so you can play it some more. At least in my opinion.

My view remains that Raise Dead should be in-game.

From my PC's perspective, the decision to recall someone from the dead would be one not taken lightly, but also not so grave as to be a unique or very rare event. The priest has power from his god. He uses that power to further the dogma of his god. Raise Dead is part of that power. If my god wants a hero back well then Helm is getting his hero back. And that hero's soul better sack-up, stop enjoying that eternal cocktail hour on Mount Celestia, and get back on the field of battle in Faerun doing Helm's work.

Yes it is expensive in material components, the magic taxing both upon the caster and the recipient, and with the potential for downstream unanticipated consequences, but in the end, my PC views raising the dead a merely another tool, albeit a powerful one, to be used to further the Faith of Helm.

I believe, like many others, that it should be allowed, and stand with Jmeca in the idea that it should be done within the story (IC) in a way that makes sense, and retains the mystique of death, and the integrity of the RP that is done in ALFA.

It seems as though the vast majority of the community understands the potency of such an act, and I don't see any danger in allowing it.

I am of the opinion that there is actually too much death in ALFA. Players never really get to see some of their PCs live out long enough to gather much complexity. So, a few characters rejoining the story every so often would not detract from the permadeath atmosphere. Of course this must be watched, however. Dms should definitely be involved at some point and be allowed to judge if the act fits the PC, the storyline(s), and the server.

It should defiantly take more consideration for a "raise dead" to occur after a death during CVC than it would from a random NPC. To me any event that would bring a PC to fight another would be a major part of the PC's personal story. To me any event that is a "major" part in a story that results in the characters death should, more often than not, be final. But the possibility should be allowed.

My character was involved in the events that, I believe, triggered the last discussion on the issue. In my mind it remains a big part of the characters actions, and personality. I believe that almost everyone I have encountered as a player would do the same, so there is no danger in keeping it open as an option.