ALFA vs WOW

[ElCadaver]

I just played about 4 days of a 10 day WOW tree trial. I got to lvl 15 with a gnome mage.

Some things I noticed

On the whole, I liked the look of ALFAs nwn2 servers better. WOW is more consistent in terms of scale , but not as nice. The toons are cool, but outlandish

WOW has mounts! I rode a griffon for 1 silver!

lots more PvP on WOW ( I killed someone! have not done that on ALFA yet)

More to do on WOW without anyone you know around ( fishing, crafting, mining). The guy who sent me the trial is lvl 80, and is currently trying to 'love' every animal type on the server (going up to the animal and emoting /love to finish an obscure quest). Some really good ideas to be gleaned for not combat quests. Do we have any that rely on emoting something?

On the whole, it was ok, but I left thinking, why would you pay $19.95 (AUS) for this, when you can play ALFA for free? Should be a good reason for us all to make a donation, or build something or DM.

Comments?

[jmecha]

How cool were the DM events, and what did you think of the RP?

[Coaan]

Also, watch out for that paladin nerf-bat. I hear it'a a vicious and deadly animal.

[Brokenbone]

"LOVING" every type of animal on a server, now that's a static!

[AcadiusLost]

I've heard something about the "achievements" style thing they've got going on WoW servers these days, have some friends (major D&D'ers and RP'ers) who admitted to getting hooked into spending countless hours logged in trying to visit every possible locale for the "explorer" achievement, or absurd hours in for mastering Fishing, etc.

We certainly want to encourage people to log in and play for long stretches, and want a satisfying experience for people playing... but these all generally strike me as OOC goals which necessarily draw players out of pursuing their PC's in-character goals, in favor of using them as tools to earn out-of-character distinctions. As such, that doesn't seem like the sort of path ALFA would want to go down.

Now, where similar lengthy, progressive quests could be devised in an in-character fashion, I'd certainly think that would be development time well spent. The Silvy University is an example of sorts of this, though I would hope it might be implemented in a simpler fashion in other cases.

Herb/resource-type gathering quests for low to middling reward might be a nice, general interim thing to include for TSM; I believe BG already has something like this in place. Other ideas are welcome as well, of course.

PvP will always be more frequent in a non-permadeath environment, and that's probably best considering the investment players get in their PCs here.

Mounts rely on dynamic creature models with corresponding animations, definitely more on the "professional developer" side of things, not something we can develop in-house. If they are released for NWN2, we will certainly integrate them, but in the meantime there isn't much feasibility there. Pack animals are do-able, and were developed in some form for Exodus, which shares our core scripts. If they would be a priority for ALFA's players, I could see about adapting them for ALFA servers as well.

Someone who has already been "hooked" on ALFA for the story/RP/DM elements can certainly see its merits vs. the WoW model, but I admit a certain hesitance to try to bait WoW-playing acquaintances of mine to join ALFA; as the "things to do whenever you log in", frequent PvP, and sense of consistent and fast progression are unlikely to ever be things ALFA supplies consistently. Where elements of these can be brought in without compromising the IC, slow progression nature of ALFA, I am certainly interested. (IC dueling guilds, randomized repeatable IC quests, etc)

[Brokenbone]

*ignores all the WOW stuff for a moment*

If pack animals are possible (and somehow not subject to the p-storage problems we seem to have), sounds great. We seem to have several "realism" type threads kicking right now or recently with various ideas about PnP rules, on topics including trade goods (which are typically heavy as sin), stuff relating to camping and weather survival (which again can mean bringing your winter booties, blankets, and other non-combat kit), etc.

If low strength characters for a small investment can get a donkey to help haul around their crap, even if said donkey also is like catnip to goblins and whatnot, good deal!

Hear you on the inability to have mounted travel at the moment, it'll happen someday when devs on the pro side, or some other major project, starts figuring the topic out.

[johnlewismcleod]

I'm somewhat embarrassed to admit several of my old PnP buddies play WoW. One even convinced me to sit at the computer for a few hours and play a character he had created.

I say "play" a character, because that is what WoW is: playing...not Roleplaying.

Even in our PnP days I noticed that these freinds of mine got their enjoyment from mastering the Player's Handbook and the other various texts and didn't care much for the RP aspects. After spending some hours with them in WoW it crystalized for me the difference in what they and I find enjoyable. They like to master and "win" the game;...I like to create a character, and then ride along whereever circumstance and the world take him/her.

WoW? ...No thanks

[furtivefigure]

Every step that ALFA takes to be more like an MMO is a step in the wrong direction, IMO. We don't need static quests, they are a poor use of a builder's time in ALFA. Instead of scripting a quest that will make players treat ALFA more and more like an MMO, take that time and use it to either DM or play on a server.

MMOs will always be better at what they do than ALFA can ever be at those things. Let us play to our strengths - roleplaying, a chance for characters to truly affect the world, and DMed quests and campaigns. You know, the things ALFA does that MMOs don't, and the reason I'm playing here instead of in a world built and developed by professional game designers.

I think many ALFAns aren't able to appreciate ALFA fully because they lack experience of playing MMOs. Personally, I've played most MMOs released in the last ten years, and there's good reason I'm now here instead of there. That doesn't mean MMOs are all bad; they're great if you want to play a game as opposed to live in a world. I die a little inside every time I hear a PC say they're going out to kill some monsters, like their character knew it gives them XP. Treat ALFA a little less like a game and a little more like a world, and you'll have a much deeper experience.

Okay, that's enough ranting from me for now.

[Mikayla]

After I stopped playing in ALFA last year I bounced around between a couple of single-player games (Mass Effect and Bioshock IIRC) and then my dad gave me a copy of Warhammer: Online. I have to admit - it was AWESOME. I played a mostly naked dark-elf witch-elf who dual wielded the nastiest daggers you ever saw while wearing a bikini. To date, I have slain something like, hmm, 20,000+ monsters. But thats not the fun part .. the fun part is that in 5 or 6 months, I have wracked up about 7,000 deathblows on other player-characters (and I've died roughly 3,000 times!). I have fought in dozens and dozens of huge group PvP battles (its what the game is about really) with upwards of 150 players on each side, fighting over huge battle-fields, castles, fortresses and even cities. It took me about 3 months to max out my level (40) but I am still working on my renown ranks (I am at 54 of 80 - despite there being several hundred thousand players of WAR, there are still only a handful of people who've reached 80 realm ranks - its a long story as to what realm ranks are, so I will skip it).

So, here is my ALFA/WAR comparison:

Role-Playing: ALFA wins. There is no role-playing in WAR. They have a role-playing server, but I never tried it. And frankly, I wouldn't - WAR is about massive player v. player battles and the only way you can even HOPE to be competitive is to have all your warbands on Ventrillo talking to each other. Role-play through typing simply won't work on WAR's battlefields. Ergo, ALFA wins.

Appearance: WAR wins. WAR's battlefields are beautiful, varied and amazing. They are high-fantasy, mixed with steam-punk renaissance, and sometimes, I wander them just to see the sights. Well, I do now that I am level 40 and most monsters can't touch me ...

Interface: WAR wins, and it wins TWICE dammit. The WAR UI is customizable, and after 6 months, I have a UI and a mouse/controller set up that allows me to fight competitively in PvP. REALLY competitively. In comparison, when I returned to ALFA, the amount of effort to simply target and attack something, or, gods forbid, target and cast a spell on something, is ridiculous. In WAR, I would have already killed it! Point being, NWN2's interface and combat mechanism is clunky and awkward and slow and frustrating.

Players: ALFA wins. For all of ALFA's problems on its forums and chat, WAR is worse. The trash-talk is unbelievable, the forums are toxic enough to kill at a distance and they contain no redeeming qualities that I've seen (save to help maximize the efficiency of your character - and, I guess, that IS pretty damn helpful in a world where you are fighting other PCs every day and even a half-second makes a life or death difference in a fight).

Quests: WAR wins. WARs static quests are way better than ALFA's, from dialogue to scripted events, to ... well ... everything. I don't hold this against ALFA though, because our static quests are made by volunteers working in their spare time in their own homes - WAR's are made by professionals getting paid to do this, including professional writers, QA testers, etc.

Mounts: WAR wins. I have not one, but three different raptors that I ride (a raptor being this bi-pedal dinosaur looking thing, that strongly resembles a velociraptor). Other folks (depending on race) have horses, demonic horses, pigs, wolves, and now, even griffons and manticores (though the griffons and manticores don't fly). Of course, WAR suffers the typical mount problem - you cannot fight while mounted.

Stuff: WAR wins. The variety of stuff in WAR is mind boggling. I mean, MIND BOGGLING. There are 40 levels that players can achieve and there are more objects of each level than I can count! Everytime I log in I end up seeing some weapon, armor, cloak, or whatever that I've not seen before, and they are adding to this all the time. Again, I cannot fault ALFA for this given that ALFA is made by volunteers and WAR has lots of paid staff - I only note it.

Characters: ALFA wins. This is a REALLY tough one for me because I LOVE some of the WAR characters, but in the end, ALFA's characters are more customizable than WARs (even though you really can make a lot of different characters in WAR).

Character Appearance: WAR wins. NWN2's avatars are ugly as sin. Even NWN1s avatars were prettier. WTF?!?

Character Balance: WAR wins. In WAR, unlike D&D 3.5, an enormous amount of effort is spent balancing the classes so that every class can participate in combat continuously and equally but in different ways (D&D has adopted this path in its 4th edition, which strongly resembles a paper-version of an MMO). No matter what your level or your class, you can always feel like you are contributing to the fight in WAR, which is not always true in ALFA/D&D. The amount of active contribution a 1st level Bard gives to a fight compared to a 1st level fighter is much different - yes, the Bard' ability might really help, but its not much fun to play. In WAR, every character has lots of active abilities and though each type of PC is doing something different (Tank, Melee DPS, Ranged DPS, Healer) they are all active all the time in combat. So, this one goes to WAR.

OVERALL: No one wins. They are different things. Nearly the same to outsiders, but to gamers, they are as different as the proverbial apples and oranges. When I want to role-play (if I do) I know I have to come to ALFA. If I want to play a smooth, fast, fun fighting game while yelling on Ventrillo ("there they go, over there, get 'em!") then I would play WAR.

Note: Having said all that I have to note that WAR, as it stands, has a single, enormous, game-killing flaw. Though there are 6 races, there are only two "sides": Chaos and Order. Since launch, what has happened is that every single server has become hopelessly lopsided one way or the other, either in favor of Chaos or Order. It took months for this to happen, and during those months, game play was fantastic. But, at this time, all the servers have matured and now, they are all imbalanced. The only real solution anyone sees is to introduce a third faction, so that one faction can never fully dominate (this was the paradigm of Mythic's prior MMO, Dark Age of Camelot, and it worked very well). Unfortunately, it does not appear that Mythic is either willing or able to add a third faction, and so WAR is really struggling as every server is unbalanced leading to a lot of people (like me) leaving. C'est la vie. I think they will fix this by the time they come out with the Warhammer 40k MMO though.

OK, there is my ALFA vs WAR summary. More to follow if I think of it. Ciao.

[mr duncan]

Interface: WAR wins, and it wins TWICE dammit. The WAR UI is customizable, and after 6 months, I have a UI and a mouse/controller set up that allows me to fight competitively in PvP. REALLY competitively. In comparison, when I returned to ALFA, the amount of effort to simply target and attack something, or, gods forbid, target and cast a spell on something, is ridiculous. In WAR, I would have already killed it! Point being, NWN2's interface and combat mechanism is clunky and awkward and slow and frustrating.

You need to get into your keymapping and customize it some. Set "Target nearest enemy" to something big and easy to find... like your spacebar.

You also need something easy to find for "Perform default action on Target" This will make you attack the targeted monster with whatever you have in your hand. A melee weapon will make you charge, a missle weapon will fire if within range.

Once you have a Target selected you can also hit the number for any spell you have slotted, instead of default action, and youll cast it directly on the targeted victim.

Literally as easy as hitting two keys, no mouse needed. I hope I am not telling you something you already know, but I dont see how youd think two buttons total to pick a target then pick what you want to do is "clunky"... if so I am prepared to be very impressed by this warhammer online.


J

[Hialmar]

You cannot compare ALFA vs WOW (or any other MMO).

You can compare NWN2 vs WOW.
Those are tools.
WOW cost a lot more money to develop than NWN2 and it has more contents (items, mobs...).
The thing is it's easier to implement custom settings, rules... with NWN2 because Obsidian offered us the tools.
With WOW or any other MMO you are stuck to hacking the client. Because obviously the developer did not give the toolsetting applications.

ALFA is a community dedicated to RP which uses NWN2 has a tool to support RP.
One can imagine such a community using WOW has its tool.
In fact it could even exist today on private/pirate WOW servers.

I have played a little on an MMO RP private server based on Lineage 2 which was managed by two ALFAns. One of which is still around and the RP was very good. On par with ALFA.

Last thing, if you compare the ALFA community with the community of any MMO server of course ALFA is way above. It's simply because we have an admission team while they admit anyone who can pay $15/month.

[Zakharra]

Mikayla nailed most of my likes/dislikes with comparing ALFA to(WowW in my case) another MMO.

The differences are;

Graphics: ALFA wins. The graphicvs are awesome and very well done, butit's a problem in getting close to some things like trees, they vanish from sight and it's real hard to not walk into one and be stopped by it.

Interface: She nailed this one exactly. The NWN2 UI is extremely clumsy and difficult to use and customize. In WoW, it's possible to walk by hitting a single button. It's customizable for mouse and tracball use. Emotes are made by using ' /e *type in emote* '

Movement: It's possible to jump and swim in WoW. You are not limited to just certain areas. You can go nearly everywhere. Moving by use of the point and click is prefered in NWN2 and use of the 'AWDS' buttons discouraged, which is a shame since it is hard to position yourself just right and the avatar has an annoying tendacy to stop and turn in a direction you do not want them to turn. I've gotten used to using the AWDS keys to move and can move more easily and quicker than using a point and click. I use that for moving the camera.

Mounts: WoW wins. There are faction ridable mounts at the basic and epic levels, plus flying mounts when you get above a certain level (60). They have recently introduced jousting and looks like they are getting to a mount you can fight from, for PvP.

Survivability: both have their points. ALFA is permamdeath and most other MMOs are repeated rezzing. So it's a preference of play style there.

Roleplaying: Both get good marks in that. I have found good RP in ALFA and WoW. It's again a choice of what you prefer. In WoW, you do not get exp for RPing.

Characters: Both have their good points. Both games have customizable avatars. In NWN2 you can change height, have a lot of hair/eye colors. WoW has a lower hair color selection and eye color is determined by what face the toon has. WoW does have a better selection of hair styles and it allows you to change hair style and color in a ingame barber shop if you tire of the one your toon has.

Classes: NWN2 has a huge number of classes, with customizable in creation. WoW has talents thaty let you choose what type of path in that class you want. A paladin for example can be spec to be a tank, a DPS(high damage), or a healer. You can also get summoned pets depending on the class. Mages can get summoned elementals, Warlocks demon pets (which fits, demon users. >_> ), Hunters get pets/companions, Druids can shape change. It allows for a good amount of customization in the classes and you can change specs if you want too.

Skills: This is fun to do and can help support a character as they quest and level. There are many diferent skills and can be switched.

Over all, both are fun and I do enjoy when I can find RP. I can get used to most of the differneces, but my main problem is the UI. Getting past that is annoying.

[HEEGZ]

Every step that ALFA takes to be more like an MMO is a step in the wrong direction, IMO. We don't need static quests, they are a poor use of a builder's time in ALFA. Instead of scripting a quest that will make players treat ALFA more and more like an MMO, take that time and use it to either DM or play on a server.

MMOs will always be better at what they do than ALFA can ever be at those things. Let us play to our strengths - roleplaying, a chance for characters to truly affect the world, and DMed quests and campaigns. You know, the things ALFA does that MMOs don't, and the reason I'm playing here instead of in a world built and developed by professional game designers.

I think many ALFAns aren't able to appreciate ALFA fully because they lack experience of playing MMOs. Personally, I've played most MMOs released in the last ten years, and there's good reason I'm now here instead of there. That doesn't mean MMOs are all bad; they're great if you want to play a game as opposed to live in a world. I die a little inside every time I hear a PC say they're going out to kill some monsters, like their character knew it gives them XP. Treat ALFA a little less like a game and a little more like a world, and you'll have a much deeper experience.

Okay, that's enough ranting from me for now.

I thought about posting some things, but you pretty much sum up my feelings here. I paid to play WoW for a few years, and enjoyed it as a game. Great art design and good interface, plus plenty to do. I am in ALFA for the roleplaying and story however, which are lacking even on WoW's RP servers.

[Mikayla]

You need to get into your keymapping and customize it some. Set "Target nearest enemy" to something big and easy to find... like your spacebar.

Already done!

You also need something easy to find for "Perform default action on Target" This will make you attack the targeted monster with whatever you have in your hand. A melee weapon will make you charge, a missle weapon will fire if within range.

Already done!

Once you have a Target selected you can also hit the number for any spell you have slotted, instead of default action, and youll cast it directly on the targeted victim.

True, but I am finding it difficult to use NWN's hotbars - how does one get spells into the vertical hotbars and then key-map them? I've not been able to so far.

Literally as easy as hitting two keys, no mouse needed. I hope I am not telling you something you already know, but I dont see how youd think two buttons total to pick a target then pick what you want to do is "clunky"... if so I am prepared to be very impressed by this warhammer online.

I understand, but ... errr ... um ... I will answer details via PM.

[Swift]

On the whole, it was ok, but I left thinking, why would you pay $19.95 (AUS) for this, when you can play ALFA for free? Should be a good reason for us all to make a donation, or build something or DM.

Because at any time of the day or night i can log onto WoW and get into a group for some solid PvP or dungeon fun. In ALFA, i have to essentially prebook days in advance to do anything more than walk around by myself.

That said, ALFA is incomparable to any MMO. They cater to different people and have drastically different goals.

Edit: FWIW, WoWs graphics, while dated, are consisted with the style they have chosen to use (to make it playable on a huge range of machines). Lord of the Rings online is still they prettiest MMO i have seen IMO (if you can run Ultra High settings )