Detect DC on traps

[FanaticusIncendi]

Does anyone out there know why it is that when I set the detect DC for a trap at like 30+ (in the trigger properties) that even the lowest njub can still immediately detect the damn thing? How do I make them harder to detect? (talking NWN1 here)

*annoyed at stupid easy detect traps*

[Vendrin]

If I recall correctly, search outside of combat automatically takes 20, so that means you only need a search of 10 total to discover them, so while I don't know if that qualifies as lowest njub, though tbh, you'd still need a level 3 elf/dwarf rogue with an int of 14 to discover a dc30 trap. other then that, no idea.

[Zelknolf]

It'll take 20 to disarm the traps, but it rolls on heartbeat (I think; it might be more often, but that's very hard to test) to find them. Each roll reaches 5 meters if they have detect mode off and reaches 10 meters if they have detect mode on. (The book thingy says feet; the book thingy lies. 5 feet in NWN's scale is about how close a guy with a greatsword stands to something he's gonna hit.) So, yeah, take a njub elf rogue (14 int, 4 ranks search = +8 search.) and drop a high-detect-DC trap (noting that elves are always counted as having detect mode on), and they're just very likely to get lucky and find the blasted thing before walking over it. Add some levels to that - let's say a rog 5 - and maybe a little gear with perception-related bonuses and we start seeing bonuses in the +12-15 range real quick, and then they don't even really have to get lucky to find them.

Flaw of the game engine, if you ask me, but engineering the fix would be a bigarsed project.

[Karvon]

I've no particular problem with non-rogues not being able to spot traps in a scenario, but you need to be careful about laying traps which are impossible, or nearly so, for you party rogues to spot. If a rogue's maxed out his trap skills and taking the precaution of moving on detect mode and stopping every few meters to scan as well, he should be able to discover, though not necessarily disarm, all the traps laid - that's his job and function.

On a playability note, very high DC, but still detectable, traps will really slow down the pace of your game, if your lead rogue is doing it right and going slow and stead with stops for scans. If it's a rogues scenario, or PW setting for solitaire play, it may be more tolerable, but otherwise, in my experience, most party's hate the tedium of slow search and scan necessary in such situations.

Karvon

*A rogue who hates DMs who place impossible to spot traps*

[Karvon]

Oh and to confirm/clarify the mechanics.... [saved from Bioware staff postings on the matter.]

Passive (default) mode
Trap detection radius: 5ft
Trap detection rate: 6 seconds (every round)
Trap detection roll: d20

Active (Detect) mode
Trap detection radius: 10ft
Trap detection rate: 3 seconds (twice per round)
Trap detection roll: d20

Karvon

[FanaticusIncendi]

By 'njub' I mean the likes of 'human commoner boy'. Little bastard spots every trap every time (and no i'm not possessing full powers). Had a player log in making a fighter 1 and same thing. Enh, it's something I've been annoyed by for a long time with the game engine, it just came up again recently while I was making some canon areas that are supposed to have traps in it which are extremely difficult to find. Definitely a flaw of the game engine. It's just not remotely realistic to think that unless you're running willy-nilly you're gonna see every damn trap every time. Kinda defeats the point. Can get around it with a die roll and RPing it but that's rather clunky, I was just hoping someone had a quick scripting solution or somesuch. *shrugs*

[JaydeMoon]

Yeah, by PnP DnD rules, you can't take twenty on anything that comes with a negative consequence if failed. Most you can hope for is taking ten.

Not noticing a trap definitely comes with negative consequences.

But this is NWN and not PnP DnD... sometimes you have to fudge it with DM rolls.

[Karvon]

AFAIK, there's no take 20 for trap detection.

Has Alfa messed around with the trap detection scripts, 'cause I've not seen this problem myself before - and certainly not on my own PW; non-rogues should definitely not see higher DC traps with vanilla game engine settings.

Karvon

[psycho_leo]

AFAIK, there's no take 20 for trap detection.

There's not. My rogue has certainly triggered traps she did not find, even standing in front of them for a reasonable time.

[Brokenbone]

JM: Search is a take 20 skill, check the SRD.

I've never investigated whether you take 20 outside of combat in NWN1 or 2, but that'd be nice. I had no reason to believe it works that way, up til now.

Anyhow, it's the whole "check every few seconds" heartbeat routine which makes it hard for a trap to hide for long. That, plus in order to "not run" in NWN1 at least, most people toggle Detect Mode, giving an extra bit of advantage, including their "range" increasing, plus as they happen to move slower, there's more heartbeats done in a given distance of walking.

...

While it's not to the point of "DC adjustment" (i.e., you could always ramp them up to ridiculous levels, which might not be very fair), being creative in drawing triggers is an alternative way to make traps a bit more challenging, if you're doing them outside of the DM Creator (which will just drop boring huge squares of death). Using things like narrow bands that can or can't be navigated around, small diamonds that complement a floor tile pattern, overlapping triggers that might be like a "matruska doll" effect (smallest trigger inside the medium inside the large) for certain strategic targets, all fun. Plus having to keep doing the disarm routine of several seconds a pop can mean the party rogue is trying to desperately clear five traps while the rest of his party is holding off adversaries... again, different from seeing one huge trap square immediately and clearing it just as fast.

Call them workarounds not exactly addressing your question, but hey.

Also, if part of your problem is DM possessed NPCs seeing things, if your Avatar was "naked" on that same map screen before possession, I think they'll see all triggers, like it or not. Not sure about with a jump to a new map with a possessed NPC... forget.

[JaydeMoon]

BB: I suppose I read it differently (unless the SRD expressly states that all uses of search allow for take 20). I use the PHB and while it definitely says, "Common 'take 20' skills include Escape Artist, Open Lock, and Search," I read that to say, it is common for skills like escape artist, open lock, and search to use the take 20 rule. Which means in some circumstances, they may not allow the take 20 rule.

"When you have plenty of time, you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalty for failure, you can take 20."

In the case of search, I would say that finding secret doors, hidden loot, a specific page in a book, etc. all carry no penalty and would allow a take 20 check. However, missing a trap carries a penalty for failure.

I guess we could determine what exactly constitutes 'threat and distraction' and 'penalty for failure' and HOW to measure them. I can certainly understand that missing a trap does not carry a direct penalty for failure, since the actual penalty is only applied when you trigger the trap. *shrug* In this case it comes down to DM preference, interpretation, and adjudication.

I might be inclined to allow take 20 for trap finding in PnP where I can measure the amount of time it takes and apply that (sometimes to no effect, but in certain time sensitive situations it may mean a lot).

I wish that NWN had take 20 options for skills like open locks, disarm traps, and search, that you could toggle. NWN counts only attacking enemies as a distraction, making it a bit of a pain for a DM to force open locks rolls in situations like crushing spiked walls or save the girl before the fire burns through the rope, or what have you.

But you work with the medium you have.

For me, I'd likely just let the in-game mechanics handle standard traps and handle any unusual traps through Dice Rolls and DM wands, and ultimately (despite my own interpretation) allow a take 20, but express verbally that the requisite time has passed.

This allows rogues to shine but doesn't slow the game down for others if they want to rush as Karvon brought up, earlier. The pace can be maintained.

[hollyfant]

I don't suppose there's a way to make the spot penalty of an area apply to seach checks too?