RDD..lame?

[Dorn]

On chat last night i was musing about RDD as a class to take one or two levels in for the whole dragonborn story.

Everyone jumped in with cries of lame and sh"t etc

Why is it?

I figure you lose 1-2 levels in progression from your base class, get +1 to AB and damage (result of strength). NA donly moderate BAB progression.

How is this any lamer than a drow or planetouched etc where you get +2 in more than one stat plus a bevy of other bonuses?

Both mean your progression is slowed. Both give bonuses.

I mean sure if you take 10 levels it's pretty awesome...but who gets to level 16?

SO why the lame call and the special consideration in the 'all PrCs are allowed' thread?

[NickD]

Eh, just do what you like as long as it's in the rules. Don't worry about what everyone else thinks. ALFAns just like to complain.

[Keryn]

Want to really know why some people think its lame? Me included?

Lets see, you can take the PRC with minimum requirements even though its a VERY powerfull one, so you only need to be a bard or sorcerer and have lore of 8... ok

Then at 6th level you can take your first RDD level which doesnt seem that late even for Alfa.

--> At 1st, level, the red dragon disciple's skin toughens and begins to grow scaly, granting them a +1 natural armor bonus to AC. This bonus improves to +2 at 4th level, +3 at 7th level, and +4 at 10th level.

Nice but...

At 2nd level, they gain a +2 to Strength. At 4th level, this bonus increases to +4. Finally, at 10th level, they gain an additional +4 bonus to Strength (for a total of +8 ) OHHHH

At 6th level, the red dragon disciple gains a +2 to Constitution, and at 8th level they gain +2 Intelligence. and a +2 to Charisma.

Then theres more... of course!!!

See Invisibility

At 10th level the red dragon disciple gains the feat See invisibility.This feat grants the ability to cast the spell See Invisibility once per day (caster level equal to character level)

Breath Weapon

At 3rd level, the dragon disciple gains the ability to breathe a cone of fire that deals 2d10 points of damage to all creatures within its area. This damage increases to 4d10 at 7th level and 6d10 at 10th level. Targets may make a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 the red dragon disciple's class level + the character's Charisma bonus). This ability may be used once per day.

Blind-Fight

At 5th level, the red dragon disciple gains the ability to fight well, even if blinded or against invisible creatures. A character with this ability gets to reroll their miss chance percentile one time to see if they actually hit. Furthermore, invisible creatures get no bonus to hit the character in melee.



And that adds to the fact this is a PRC not a race, which means you can combine those special races you spoke with this class and add those bonus to these already amazing bonus, wayyy to amazing if you ask me.

And that is why it is so lame. I've seen one RDD made in one server i used to play and.. i wont make any coments!!

[dob85y]

If there are thise who dont like a class, than dont take it. Dont bag those who do choose it. I went through a similar experience on another server, but it was as a warlock. I was the warlock.

What it can do is bring some interesting RP about weather a red dragon born individual is or isnt inherently evil, and weather they will turn out to be an uncontrollable force for evil, much like a demon born, rather than discussing that it allways seems to be raining in Rivermoot.

The thing about this server is that it needs conflict and conrtoversy to keep it alive, IC of course.

[hollyfant]

The notion that the Red Dragon Disciple prestige class is easy to get into yet overpowered is in my opinion a given, but only on the game-mechanical side of things. The roleplaying seems pretty complicated to me.

And let us compare it to that staple of power gaming: the Cleric! A mere single level gives

• heavy armour and shield proficiencies.
• Spellcasting
  • Three first level spells, as many as a sorcerer or a specialist wizard,
  • selectable from the complete set,
  • and spontaneously convertible into healing spells as needed.
• And to top it all off: the domain abilities.
  • You get two,
  • each as good as a feat (if not better),
  • and no need to meet the prerequisites of the equivalent feats.
• No prerequisites at all to enter the class! None, nada, niente! Take it at first level if you like, you devious powergamer you!

Now please don't get me wrong. Red Dragon Disciple is a class that should be frowned upon, as it undeniably is cheesy and powerful. But if someone can pull off the required roleplaying... more power to them.

[Rusty]

OMG I R HAS DRAGONBLUD. PHEAR!!1

[Brokenbone]

All NWN1 & NWN2 PRCs at least share the name of their PnP counterparts.

The implementations, though, are not always that close.

RDD never got any adjustments in NWN1 because it was agreed to be simply banned. RDD hasn't got any adjustments in NWN2, but neither have any of the other PrCs, as they were a back burner topic until they could get technical adjustment... take Frenzied Berserker as an example. Their role in PnP is "kill everyone, including your own partymates if you run out of foes and fail a Will save." FBs keep their benefits in NWN2, but don't have that detriment. ALFA could of course impose that through some kind of confusion script, but exotic PrCs are surely on a far, far backburner.

Anyhow, I do not know whether RDDs are "shipped" very close to PnP stats or not, doesn't matter, LA some time ago (with a majority of Admin, but not all 5 admin nor any Standards discussion) greenlighted them all.

Have fun with them, to the extent your local DM team is willing to support those classes, i.e., if they think the "cheesy" backlash is worth it, and aren't too concerned about the balance of unreviewed classes.

I assume some day, technical attention might be paid to popular classes, much like how a fairly reliable HiPS implementation (better than Bioware's, arguably) got figured out for Shadowdancers in NWN1, or if Frenzied Berserkers got their "kill everyone if bloodlust is longer than your opponent list" class features.

[Veilan]

Regarding frenzied berserkers,

I'd like to point out that they can easily kill their own party, however, it is a willing, activated power that no counter exists against. Needless to say the implications for CvC are staggering, and in the meantime I advise anyone not to join a party with an FB, ever.

There still does exist a prioritised list of PrC adjustment necessities and viability concerns, I hope it's not impossible to take another prudent look at it despite the ill-advised actions that were taken.

[Zelknolf]

People say it's lame because of the dragon blood. That's all.

The abilities? Meh... sure you get nice bonuses to your ability scores, but you get nothing else for ten levels. In that same stretch, a bard would get 5th (maybe 6th! Got 22 cha from build + gear?) level spells, all of the songs and all of the inspirations. Hell, if we pushed to give them all of their PnP abilities, bards get to cast break enchantment (pwning all sorts of malady) and suggestion as bard song.

Whereas bard 5? Eh... 2nd level spells? Inspire competence (at the yummy +1 level!)? Add the full RDD levels and they get to compete with fighters on some of the numbers (+8 str = +4 AB = funny enough, exactly how much AB they lose for not being a fighter) but not others (namely, no feats, no weapon spec.)


I'm with you, Dorn; the CG drow with scimitars is cheesier, imo, as are most half drow, as are the flat planetouched ("I play a fire genasi. He likes fire. He sets things on fire... why would he need other aspects of a personality? You're talking like this is supposed to be an immersive role playing environment!") but they're all allowed and don't get half the flak of the RDD.

[Keryn]

Ey don't get me wrong, Im not saying he shouldnt play it!! I only said I think it to be overpowered and i've seen builds doing some insane stuff. Now, its allowed ? Yes it is, so this topic wasnt even necessary. Dorn asked why we thought it to be cheesy I merely answered. I was sincere this PRC combined with some base classes is very very powerful thats just that!

[danielmn]

Comparative to other PrC's, the RDD is pretty stacked, and easy to get into. If one or the other changed, it would not be so gudah.

As for the BAHZEHRKER....
"I'd like to point out that they can easily kill their own party, however, it is a willing, activated power that no counter exists against. Needless to say the implications for CvC are staggering, and in the meantime I advise anyone not to join a party with an FB, ever."

I approve. Do not join with a FB due to the meta info that the particular class may not be able to stop themselves from killing your PC after all enemies are mightaly swept from the field with their axes and swords...
or know how to operate within a group that contains someone with so much rage during a battle they can't control themselves when they see red...FB's are intended to be shock troops...a good cohesive group can use their FB's as an asset, not a liability....but that would require roleplaying and not using meta info. Otherwise....leave the players of FB's to roleplay all alone, ban them to the outer crusts of the server, and have nothing at all to do with them whatsoever...that's why the PrC was created in the first place.

[Brokenbone]

OOC to avoid someone based on character class with no other observations.

IC though as soon as you've seen them lose their minds and wail on partymates, or managed to make your PC or his/her allies lose their minds, kill off their friends, etc.

It'd be like ICly, being aware, that someone has a cursed item that casts "confusion" in the middle of a party unpredictably during some percent of your combats. IC solution is "don't fight anywhere near this guy", or try to cure the curse. But in this case, it's not a curse, it's a class feature.

Guess can mitigate by buying as many Will save buffs as possible (for bad warrior will save progressions), but eventually there ends up hell to pay.

[Rusty]

FB is a notorious game-breaking PrC, allowed only by noob DMs. But don't let that distract from the lameness of RDDz.

[Veilan]

Comparative to other PrC's, the RDD is pretty stacked, and easy to get into. If one or the other changed, it would not be so gudah.

As for the BAHZEHRKER....
"I'd like to point out that they can easily kill their own party, however, it is a willing, activated power that no counter exists against. Needless to say the implications for CvC are staggering, and in the meantime I advise anyone not to join a party with an FB, ever."

I approve. Do not join with a FB due to the meta info that the particular class may not be able to stop themselves from killing your PC after all enemies are mightaly swept from the field with their axes and swords...
or know how to operate within a group that contains someone with so much rage during a battle they can't control themselves when they see red...FB's are intended to be shock troops...a good cohesive group can use their FB's as an asset, not a liability....but that would require roleplaying and not using meta info. Otherwise....leave the players of FB's to roleplay all alone, ban them to the outer crusts of the server, and have nothing at all to do with them whatsoever...that's why the PrC was created in the first place.

Heh, I appreciate the somewhat misrepresenting knock on what I was saying, but avoiding the "all my party mates take 10 damage a round, without me actually flailing at them"-button ability from an unknown dude is more comparable to avoiding that bear cave because you saw a post by the DM saying "sorry, the bear is CR 74 and bugged to chase every character with a positive ability score in any one ability over ATs, don't enter the cave until it's fixed next update".

Regardless... I don't think there's a doubt everyone's still free to feed that bear if they so choose .

I meant to give an insight as to why this class is particularly game breaking, both for immersion as well as technically, with a fair warning attached. By the way, since partying-up is an ooc mechanic too, the point seems even further missed. I also kind of consider that button to be ooc.

While the implications of someone raging into such a fit that he does not differentiate friend from foe in fact may make for great roleplaying in a controlled fixed-party, DM-overseen session, their current ability does not resemble this at all, it's a magic "you all die" button, which seems fairly unbelievable to me to begin with.

So excuse me if I don't follow how that is somehow a suggestion to not act IC. We do have a technical game dimension, and it may not hurt to be informed about it to all enjoy our time immersed better.

[danielmn]

"Heh, I appreciate the somewhat misrepresenting knock on what I was saying, but avoiding the "all my party mates take 10 damage a round, without me actually flailing at them"-button ability from an unknown dude"

Ermm, are you speaking of the inspire frenzy that they recieve at 6th, wherein all party members suffer 2 hp of damage a round while their strength goes up 6 and their ac down 4? I contribute that as more of a "BE RECKLESS AND CHARGE AFTER THEM, NO MATTER WHAT IS IN THE WAY, EVEN THOSE THORNS OVER THERE!" kindah deal. Even so, I think it would be optimal to keep the individual and party frenzy seperate, so the party gets used at appropriate times. I would only see that being used during a seige or a major battle of a war ect ect...not an everyday thing. But that's just how I'd play it. Otherwise it'd be an individual thing. Not sure if that is what you are referring to or not.