A Land Far Away

I know this is touchy...

In mine and many other DMs PnP games if a PC dies generally you usually have the player roll up a new PC that is X levels lower than the lowest surviving PC. In the event of a TPK (Total Party Kill) the campaign is usually ended / restarted with much lower level PCs.

In my time in ALFA I have noticed a suspicious behavior of solo PCs being killed my the droves while players with DM attention tend to survive longer. I have noticed a tendency of DMs to be overly (imo) cautious with their players, a major concern being that a player may be killed an thus ruin a campaign...especially at higher levels.

If I run my campaign for a year and all of the characters are high level and one or two critical PCs die, it spells doom for the game. This imo creates an environment where the DM almost /has/ to be especially careful when planning any combat. Random encounters and lethal traps are almost out of the question...

I know its is probably not possible but I would like to discuss ideas on how we might be able to approximate the "roll up a new PC at level X" ... imo the benefit would be campaigns would not "hinge" on PC survival, it would encourage group play since death in a group means at least you may roll up a higher level PC to rejoin, it allows DMs to be less "gun-shy" in their games, I think we would see more high level PC deaths to me that would be more realistic, death itself would not be as "catastrophic" on some players, at least they don't have to "start completely over"...

The down sides, it is unfair to players not in a campaign as they do not have the option to roll up a higher level PC to replace a high level character that was killed, it would be a crack in the "Perma death" pillar (the death is still permanent) It could create calls of favoritism, it could be abused by DMs, death may become more common and possibly cheapen the impact of dying if you know you will be able to create a new PC at level X...

I don't recall when this topic had been raised in the past, I'm sure it has as nothing here is really "new" ... I have a group of players in a campaign, so of course I have a selfish stake in this discussion, if I could have it my way of course I would want to be given the trust to have a player roll up a lower level PC and be able to continue with the campaign...

No one has died yet, but imo Adventuring is a dangerous thing, and it seems unrealistic for me to think that all of my players would "survive" a career of adventuring ... I think some of them should die, but I am admittedly "gun-shy" and I don't want to be...

This is why I am asking for advise and opinions on the matter hopefully from folks that are not as "biased" as I am.

Permadeath is one of the main things that keeps me in ALFA.

I would be quite sad if the current system was altered in any way.

"Ruin the story"? How? The only way for a character's death to ruin a story is if you've already picked a conclusion that includes that character's survival. And if you've already picked a conclusion, you're railroading. (Don't railroad, 'cuz railroading's bad, m'kay?) 'sides, the RP that comes from PC death is usually insightful and interesting; that's the best kind of story.

The problem ends up being one of getting the new character integrated with the old party, and that's largely a matter of getting the player to be very cautious with the new PC and to adjust XP awards for the greater risk the lower-level character has to endure to keep up with the highbies. Much easier for the lowbie to keep motivation if there's some sense that he/she will "catch up" with the higher-level characters, given time. From the DMin' position, I'd reccomend letting the low-level get a few levels before there's anything with areas of effect and to keep the death magic to a minimum until they get back to the lvl 4-5 range (the death magic tends to pwn the lowest-level toons... from a tactical perspective, spells like circle of death and cloudkill exist to clear out fodder, and eh... that cute new level 1 sure is fodder. Anyhow, a well-equipped level 4 can start surviving a lot of stuff, even amongst much higher-level friends.)

Also, 7 handy spells with the power to bring back the dead:
(they're expensive, but they get the job done, and your "especially" case happens to be wealthy higher-level PCs, one of whom is likely to be able to cast one of these spells)
Reincarnate (drd 4, 1000 gold in oils/incense)
Raise Dead (clr 5, 5000 gold diamond [500 in NWN1])
Resurrection (clr 7, 10,000 gold diamond [1000 in NWN1])
Limited Wish (sorc/wiz 7, 300 xp and a 5000 gold diamond [just 300 xp in NWN1])
True Resurrection (clr 9, 25,000 gold)
Wish (sorc/wiz 9, 5000 xp)
Miracle (clr 9, 5000/500 gold or 5000 xp)

Hell, True Resurrection even brings the dead guy back without any level loss, and without any remains, and the guy can have been dead for up to 10 years per caster level (170 at the lowest level true resurrection is available)

Dead horse is dead. Permadeath the way it works currently is what defines ALFA.

Zelknolf wrote: "Ruin the story"? How? The only way for a character's death to ruin a story is if you've already picked a conclusion that includes that character's survival. And if you've already picked a conclusion, you're railroading. (Don't railroad, 'cuz railroading's bad, m'kay?) 'sides, the RP that comes from PC death is usually insightful and interesting; that's the best kind of story.

Devastation of a story by character death is railroading ... hmm ... I didn't say that the character should not "die" ... this doesn't make sense to me. I am saying that the PCs lose their cleric of 15th level...what is a 1st level cleric supposed to do to help?

Zelknolf wrote:The problem ends up being one of getting the new character integrated with the old party, and that's largely a matter of getting the player to be very cautious with the new PC and to adjust XP awards for the greater risk the lower-level character has to endure to keep up with the highbies. Much easier for the lowbie to keep motivation if there's some sense that he/she will "catch up" with the higher-level characters, given time. From the DMin' position, I'd reccomend letting the low-level get a few levels before there's anything with areas of effect and to keep the death magic to a minimum until they get back to the lvl 4-5 range (the death magic tends to pwn the lowest-level toons... from a tactical perspective, spells like circle of death and cloudkill exist to clear out fodder, and eh... that cute new level 1 sure is fodder. Anyhow, a well-equipped level 4 can start surviving a lot of stuff, even amongst much higher-level friends.)

The story in my opinion is "ruined" when the DM changes it to fit the dynamic of the party. I create events that will occur on a time table provided that nothing the party does interferes with that, when the party exerts their actions on the story it changes and reacts to what they are doing. This is not railroading...

However I am not sure what you call "nerfing" the game to fit the party, but I don't like it. If they are up against a foe that has the means to use area of effect spells and death magic...the enemy is going to use it.

Zelknolf wrote:Also, 7 handy spells with the power to bring back the dead:
(they're expensive, but they get the job done, and your "especially" case happens to be wealthy higher-level PCs, one of whom is likely to be able to cast one of these spells)
Reincarnate (drd 4, 1000 gold in oils/incense)
Raise Dead (clr 5, 5000 gold diamond [500 in NWN1])
Resurrection (clr 7, 10,000 gold diamond [1000 in NWN1])
Limited Wish (sorc/wiz 7, 300 xp and a 5000 gold diamond [just 300 xp in NWN1])
True Resurrection (clr 9, 25,000 gold)
Wish (sorc/wiz 9, 5000 xp)
Miracle (clr 9, 5000/500 gold or 5000 xp)

Hell, True Resurrection even brings the dead guy back without any level loss, and without any remains, and the guy can have been dead for up to 10 years per caster level (170 at the lowest level true resurrection is available)

That is great and it also tends to make life for the higher levels "easier", there are ways to die that cannot be reversed, particularly if the party does not have access to the body...

What happens is once a group gets higher level with DM attention they lose the sense of danger...because DMs do things like nerf the situations to "coddle" the pet players.

What I am asking to do doesn't make it less likely to die, it makes it easier to get back in game after a death and therefore reducing the blow of a death.

It is no secret in ALFA that being with a DM is safer than being without one. Its imo the elephant in the room no one talks about.

The reasons a DM "nerfs" the environment is to ensure the players do not get killed, to protect them from death...how is that fair to the solo player? We even have a "Tech Death" because the DM didn't scale an encounter correctly. DMs are "gun shy" to put their players at real risk, sure they may dress it up and make it appear scary but more oft than not the players will live...unless they do something really dumb.

We claim to be perma-death and yet we have highlevel players that shop for a DM that won't kill them. And when a highlevel PC gets killed there is often a "backlash" on the forums about how the DM was bad...

It is "understood" that a foreign DM cannot get some other DMs player killed unless they do something really "dumb".

Zelk by suggesting that I alter the environment to protect the lower level player you illustrate my point exactly... its that sort of thing I do not want to do. Its not railroading to let events unfold in a manner the DM thinks is logical, it is a type of railroading to alter the events to fit the players ... environment railroading.

It imo is the DMs job to present a "realistic" reacting world to the players, not fabricate cushy encounters that are designed to be beaten by the players.

I am not sure why I posted ... I could have guessed easily enough at this reaction.

Perma death for people not in the circle of cool kids, and perma life for the pet players with DMs... and DMs that want to not "protect" their players ... well, they run the risk of being called a "bad DM" since a player may be in real danger playing with them.

Again I am not saying to remove perma death...I will change the title of the thread to reflect this.

There is no reason to make combat deadly in a campaign. You don't even have to have combat at all in a campaign, so part of your premise is shaky. If you don't want PC's to die in your campaign, keep combat easy. With practice you'll learn how to make things a challenge without crossing the line, though ALFA's systems make that very hard admittedly. PC's die outside of their campaigns too, so no matter how easy you make it you'll lose some to permadeath.

Realize also that PC's can be lost through player attrition, which causes just as much disruption to the story as PC death, perhaps more, as they just "disappear," usually after a lengthy run of periodic absenteeism. I suspect more campaigns die due to member attrition and DM burnout than anything else.

Mulu wrote:There is no reason to make combat deadly in a campaign. You don't even have to have combat at all in a campaign, so part of your premise is shaky. If you don't want PC's to die in your campaign, keep combat easy. With practice you'll learn how to make things a challenge without crossing the line, though ALFA's systems make that very hard admittedly. PC's die outside of their campaigns too, so no matter how easy you make it you'll lose some to permadeath.

Realize also that PC's can be lost through player attrition, which causes just as much disruption to the story as PC death, perhaps more, as they just "disappear," usually after a lengthy run of periodic absenteeism. I suspect more campaigns die due to member attrition and DM burnout than anything else.

Another example of the mindset I do not favor ... "make combat deadly" ... a dragon is deadly, if it comes up on a random encounter chart ... I didn't "make it deadly" the dice did.

With practice ... I can make things challenging .. ?

I know how to scale an encounter to fit a party... I know what is easy and what is extremely difficult..

I refuse to always make encounters "easy" ... thats not D&D imo.

zicada wrote:Dead horse is dead. Permadeath the way it works currently is what defines ALFA.

From what I am seeing ...

Permadeath is already a dead. Its a farce to say we are Permadeath but DMs are purposefully adjusting the game to protect players.

Its Permadeath for a solo player, and what I am suggesting wouldn't change that.

If anything what I am suggesting would hopefully allow DMs to not "worry" so much that their players might die. Its not the DMs job to keep the players alive its the DMs job to create an environment that seems "real" to the players.

Adjusting the rules to "pad" exp for a lower level PC is that really okay as Zelk stated?

http://jason.13th-floor.org/xpcalc/xpcalc.php

4(15th PCs) +1(1st PC) against challenge rating 15 =

900 exp for the 4(15th PCs) and 0 exp for the 1(1st PC)

If I can do that I will do that. Its pretty much the same thing...

accelerated advancement if in a party...slightly different than starting at a higher level and they can still get much better gear than a normal 1st level because certainly the party would outfit the PC probably with the dead PCs gear.

is that all "above board" and legal?

[edit was meant to be a PM]

Nalo Jade wrote: I am saying that the PCs lose their cleric of 15th level...what is a 1st level cleric supposed to do to help?

Not much. He'll have to go find some other equally low-level PCs to adventure with, in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY as a new player would.

Nalo Jade wrote:Adjusting the rules to "pad" exp for a lower level PC is that really okay as Zelk stated?

http://jason.13th-floor.org/xpcalc/xpcalc.php

4(15th PCs) +1(1st PC) against challenge rating 15 =

900 exp for the 4(15th PCs) and 0 exp for the 1(1st PC)

If I can do that I will do that. Its pretty much the same thing...

accelerated advancement if in a party...slightly different than starting at a higher level and they can still get much better gear than a normal 1st level because certainly the party would outfit the PC probably with the dead PCs gear.

is that all "above board" and legal?

Nope.

XP standards have 2 measures for XP awarded, one for risk and one for RP quality, giving a range of (I think) 45 xp/hr to 140 xp/hr

If, for example, we have a party of 4. A ftr 6, a clr 6, a rog 6, and a wiz 2. They're up against fifty pissed off hobgoblins and their extra pissed off leader. 2 kinds of risk in this encounter, yes? There's a risk of plot failure (maybe the hobgoblins have hostages. They're LE; they can see the value of ransom. ) and there's a risk of death. However, even with fifty hobbos, what's the chances of them bringing down a properly equipped ftr 6? He's probably in full plate +1 carrying a tower shield +1 (AC 24, provided he has 12 dex) and only gets hit on a natural 20. Same likely goes for the cleric. And that rogue? Well, he probably has tumble, and his light armor makes getting around, as a general statement, durn easy. He can get himself out of harms way. That wizard? Eh... probably has, what, 16 AC? Mage armor and 14 dex? 10 hit points, 14 if he took toughness and has no social skills?

While everyone has the risk of plot failure (everyone's screwed up if the hostages die... and eh... the party was actually trying to save them), the wizard is the one who's really at risk of dieing. If the group was full of good RP, you might give most of the party 80 xp/hr and that poor wizard barely eeking out survival 100 xp/hr. Granted, it's not a huge difference (your sessions are 3-4 hours? So eh... 60-80xp per session o' difference, provided the difference in risk is exactly that every time. In my experience, there are more "highbies are at no risk, while lowbie can die any round" encounters that merit a bigger spread, with no real difference in risk during the RP-focused sessions.)


Also, gotta be careful with new PCs gettin' twinked by dead PC gear. Certainly allowable, if it's IC (big if a lot of times, but it can happen. I know that when I was the lowbie amongst highbies, the party's leader regularly slipped that lower-level fellow gear off of fallen allies, with rationale to the tune of "no sense in letting more people kick off.") but we do have clauses in ye olde wealth standards about overpowered items. (giving a level 1 a +2 sword tends to require reduction, and can technically result in the twinker gettin' slapped about for twinking, if someone complains to the right person.) That said, you still have 50% to work with on either side of the "target" wealth. Those rich PCs can give pretty durn useful twink to the lowbies that'll help 'em survive.

---* Easy (20 XP / RL hour):
the PCs should be able to overcome the challenge without any difficulty;
----* Normal (40 XP / RL hour):
the PCs should be able to overcome the challenge without significant difficulty;
----* Serious (60 XP / RL hour):
the PCs should have some difficulty in overcoming the challenge;
----* Exceptional (80 XP / RL hour):
failure is a realistic possibility;

Is it really "Exceptional" difficulty if a 1st level wizard traveling with (5) 15th level PCs encounter a CR 10 encounter?

I can see if its a 1st level fighter that "charges" into the fray...

I am looking for a solution, it may not sound like it... but I am.

I just don't think the current system works for what I am trying to accomplish.

1. I don't want to coddle my players.
2. I don't want the death of a player to end the game for them, being that they could (depending on the level of the rest of the party) be so far ahead of 1st level that joining up and hoping to ever "catch up" is unrealistic.

If I can accelerate the lower levels advancement, which imo is not supported by the DMG nor ALFA rules, that would be a good compromise...

The options I have been presented, I appreciate them, but they aren't fitting what I am looking for.

<nerf>I am not going to nerf the environment to fit the group. It cheats them imo by cheapening the story...the reason we have permadeath, to make them value the character, having a "your character is safe with me as the DM" implication cheapens the permadeath, in fact it does more damage to the pillar of ALFA than what I was proposing.

<raise dead> Resurrection is not always an option. Higher level characters face greater challenges, just because you make it X level or the party has X gold on hand does not imbue psuedo-immortality to the adventurer. More to the point though, is my question is about what to do when a player dies and cannot come back so resurrection doesn't have anything to do with this anyway.

<no/little combat> Avoiding combat all together? I am a Dungeons and Dragons sort of DM, I am not here to play "house" nor re-enact some b-rated Soap Opera...there will be dungeons and monsters ... 90% of the content of the books deal with combat/traps, its a big part of the fun. I award RP exp but I until there is a class "social butterfly" I don't really think people should get better at their profession because they are a "convincing character"....but, again I am not looking to keep the player alive ... the question is what can I do when the player is perma dead and the rest of his group is 10 levels higher than him?

Nalo Jade wrote: Is it really "Exceptional" difficulty if a 1st level wizard traveling with (5) 15th level PCs encounter a CR 10 encounter?

I can see if its a 1st level fighter that "charges" into the fray...

Keep in mind that AI often makes enemies run past your tanks to go after that scrawny lvl 1 wizard. This is especially true if he has the never to attempt being remotely useful. So, while it may be easy for the party overall, it carries a great risk of death for a lvl 1 PC. Also a 1st level fighter that charges a CR 10 enemy will be dead regardless of who his friends are.

Nalo Jade wrote: the question is what can I do when the player is perma dead and the rest of his group is 10 levels higher than him?

Ideally a brand new PC would join a campaign along with other brand new PCs and all your concerns would be moot, but given ALFA's current reality of few active live DMs it's not really a feasible option for most players. Also, giving someone a feee lvl 10 PC just because they just lost a lvl 12 is also not feasible, because then everyone would require the same opportunity. Your best option would be suiting your adventures to keep that lvl 1 PC alive. Doesn't mean the ubber wizard of doom has to keep from unleashing death magic, but probably means your adventure against the evil wizard of doom should wait a bit until the new PC can take a punch. That along giving the PC a (even if slighlty) higher advancement rate should be enough in most cases.

I don't think Nalo is saying he wants to do away with permadeath. It seems more like what he's saying is that he would like to have the flexibility to start PC's at a higher level than one.

In an almost purely campaign setting, I don't see why not, so long as the other people in the campaign don't care. I highly doubt the remaining NWN1 community in ALFA would freak out and call foul if people started rolling up campaign characters at higher levels under DM supervision any more than they would freak out if multiple PCs were allowed for NWN1, or DMs were allowed to be players on the servers they DM on...

But this is ALFA after all, so it won't happen.

Personal opinion expressed, I will go on to echo what others have said in this thread regarding the DMs ability to make a campaign "survivable":

Nalo wrote:If I run my campaign for a year and all of the characters are high level and one or two critical PCs die, it spells doom for the game.

It doesn't spell doom for the game but it might spell doom for a specific story arc. If your key players die but are still willing to play with you, just change the story *shrugs*

Were the PCs supposed to find some clue in an enemy encampment that leads them to "something big" that you have a whole storyline for but then instead they get pwned and half of them die? Well, that story arc likely is done, but then what's to say that the new PCs in the newly re-formed group can't embark on an adventure that is the other side of the coin from the original arc? They see the story from a different angle, maybe a less deadly/challenging one. You need to roll with the choices your PCs make and adjust accordingly or you're going to find yourself frustrated a lot.

Mulu wrote:There is no reason to make combat deadly in a campaign. You don't even have to have combat at all in a campaign, so part of your premise is shaky. If you don't want PC's to die in your campaign, keep combat easy. With practice you'll learn how to make things a challenge without crossing the line, though ALFA's systems make that very hard admittedly.

Precisely. As Mulu says, you figure out how to make your encounters challenging without them being TPK. Posses your NPC's and target attack the tougher members. Don't let the mechanics do it. Make use of the pause button and use turn-based play how about? Not everyone is good at "video games" and some of us freak out and freeze when battle starts happening in real time. The people behind the screen often make much better choices and their toons live longer when they have a second to pause and decide their next move rather than just clicking away. Some of us people behind the toons REALLY suck at the mechanics of computer combat.

I have a couple other tricks I employ to keep the lower levels alive in an otherwise deadly combat situation. If anyone wants to hear them you can PM me 'cause I don't want to give away my secrets in public Just think about this- there is a battle, you take a grievous wound and crumple to the ground, unconscious. Does your attacker stand there and continue to whack at your prone form, leaving himself open to possible attack, or does he turn to fight the rest of the combatants/support his friends? Sure he might come back and slit your throat if the bad guys win, but in the moment? Subduing you is likely enough for the moment. Also what about prisoners? Perhaps the attackers have orders to take prisoner whoever isn't killed so they fight the PCs into submission but only use deadly force on the PCs who won't give up and aren't easily subdued. Things to think about.

And as Mulu infers, "challenging" does not mean "combat". It CAN mean combat but it certainly doesn't have to. There are LOTS of ways to make your sessions extremely challenging without including deadly combat situations.

Finally, in terms of including low levels into a higher level campaign... if you use some creativity it can be done and done well. You neither have to nerf the encounter for the sake of the newb nor do you have to kill him. This takes some collaboration between the DM and player but it can be done.

In fact, from what I've seen, just about the only thing stopping players from rolling up a new character in a higher level campaign is the players themselves. Perhaps they are only hesitant because they haven't had a DM who can successfully integrate a lower level. That's understandable.

But then there's also the ego trip to think of. "I don't want to be a tag-along" mentality. Well does it have to be all about you, all the time? Again, with DM/Player collaboration and some creativity, there is no reason your PC can't play a pivotal role in the campaign. So what he can't out-fight the rest of the party? Someone is always going to be better than you and besides, a story that is defined by who's fighting what is a boring story, IMO. For the last couple months the story arc in the group I play with has been all about the lowest level in the group, and it's been awesome. A good DM makes sure everyone has a chance to be in the spotlight, regardless of what level they are.

/end soapbox


P.S. If anyone would like to roll up a PC for the campaign I DM, go ahead and PM me and lets talk.