1.69 and ALFA

[Wynna]

This is a new thread to hold constructive posts from a previous thread that degenerated. If insults appear again, this will be locked without a third thread created. Maintain decorum over a divisive issue, please.

[Wynna]

Without heated passions, just a quick survey of interest in creating a new ALFA NWN1 server that is 1.69 compatible.

I've been reading up on 1.69 issues, and given what I know of ALFA's ACR I think a fresh start is in order. For starters, 1.69 tends to cause DM Client crashes because of the "too many items in the palette" bug. I'm sure ALFA NWN1 has a ton of stuff in its palette that is broken or otherwise doesn't even get used. There are numerous old systems that haven't worked in years: dogs, horses, herbs, etc. HCR is also quite out of date and not really in use by the community of roleplayers anymore.

Building a new server using community content: CEP, CSB, Worms, Mirador, etc, all of which are updated to 1.69 already or will be very soon by those community contributors takes the tech end of the work out of the picture and leaves us with a lot of content to build with. It also lowers the bar to admission by making all the haks that need to be downloaded already highly used by the community. Plus that new content just looks awesome.

PC's transferring to an MKII server would likely be a one way trip, as they'd have to be stripped on entry to eliminate incompatible content. Easy enough to replace that content in the toolset with compatible content.

The way I see it, the platform only has a few years left in it. I say we let our hair down, tear down the walls that have been preventing a lot of player choice, and have some fun with an NWN1 server built with the best the community has to offer in the way of content.

I still build, DM, and play in NWN1 nearly every day. I haven't done it here for a host of reasons that aren't worth getting in to, but a clean slate approach to building an ALFA mod is very interesting to me.

If this sounds like something interesting to you, post below.

[Wynna]

I believe Mulu's mentioned his campaign module elsewhere several times, nothing nefarious there. My point is that if you're tossing the ACR and "starting from scratch", you'll basically be rewriting all of ALFA's scripted core rules. Switching to the CEP, dropping the elements of HCR we use, switching away from all the ALFA haks, you'll be both functionally incompatible, and fully independent from NWN1-ALFA. PCs won't transfer over smoothly (though you could rebuild them via LETO one by one), nor will any existing servers. Unless all the NWN1 HDMs and Admin get behind such a reimagining of our entire NWN1 front, you are certainly in the territory of a new and separate project. ALFA is already feeling the strain of managing two and a half parallel platforms (NWN1-Live, NWN2-Live, NWN2-Beta), I don't foresee adding a fourth (NWN1-Mulu) under the ALFA banner.

[Wynna]

Let me list the fact as I see them. If I'm wrong on the facts, then it's a bad idea. If I'm right, then it's worth looking into.

Facts:
1. NWN1 ALFA is currently incompatible with 1.69.
2. The amount of effort it would take to go through every single item, creature, placeable, etc. in the current ALFA NWN1 mods would be roughly equivalent to just rebuilding a mod from scratch.
3. The community already has made updated 1.69 content that is visually superior to existing ALFA hak material.
4. New players coming into ALFA NWN1 will expect the servers to be at 1.69 and have the new tilesets and other custom content available on the vault.

Now, if I'm wrong about any of that, then the idea of an MKII rebuild is probably a moot issue. If I'm right, then it's worth discussing without histrionics or neurotic suggestions that I am the devil out to divide and conquer ALFA. My only underlying motive is I'd like to play on ALFA again, I don't like the NWN2 bleed rules, and I want the NWN1 servers to use the best custom content and be 1.69 compatible.

What I would do if we went the MKII route is build a "soundstage" mod because that's all we do at NWC, build an empty mod that a DM can use. After that, I hand it over to ALFA's NWN1 build team, if any, to add static content and such because I don't use that stuff. I would also before building discuss just what haks to add and what area to build, which I will otherwise simply decide on my own for my own campaign purposes.

Basically, I'm about to start building an FR NWN1 mod anyway, why not build it for ALFA? I suppose the "rules" scripts could be added later. I wouldn't want them in my version of the mod, of course, but if ALFA is married to the ACR so be it. I assume I can build areas and NPC's and whatnot without it being in there.

[Wynna]

Mulu,

Will the new server you propose be connected to the vault and allow for the easy movement of existing ALFA players to and from your server?

Kate

[Wynna]

The idea would be to continue ALFA NWN1 with the same PC's and a vault connection. Of course, the custom content is different so PC's coming in would need to be stripped and have their gear replaced, since the haks would be different and 1.69 breaks a lot of stuff. It would be a one way trip, but the idea would be to rebuild all ALFA NWN1 servers with the new CC and in v1.69. It would be a major PITA to try and go back and forth between 1.68 alfa hak servers and 1.69 CC servers. Over time, all ALFA NWN1 servers would be 1.69 with the new CC.

I think the amount of stuff in the current ALFA NWN1 palette alone is enough to make them incompatible with 1.69. In other words, I'm not sure you even *could* update ALFA's current mods to 1.69 without going through so many drastic changes that you may as well start over. That's sort of the gist of the idea: If that much work needs to be done anyway, why not get new and prettier servers out of it?

Basically, you can use 1.69 as an opportunity to upgrade ALFA NWN1 in all of its content, or you can spend the same amount of time testing each and every thing in the palette for 1.69 compatibility and keep using the old mods. Things like quests and convos are easy enough to import as erfs if they are desired.

[Wynna]

The idea would be to continue ALFA NWN1 with the same PC's and a vault connection. Of course, the custom content is different so PC's coming in would need to be stripped and have their gear replaced, since the haks would be different and 1.69 breaks a lot of stuff. It would be a one way trip, but the idea would be to rebuild all ALFA NWN1 servers with the new CC and in v1.69. It would be a major PITA to try and go back and forth between 1.69 alfa hak servers and 1.69 CC servers. Over time, all ALFA NWN1 servers would be 1.69 with the new CC.

I think the amount of stuff in the current ALFA NWN1 palette alone is enough to make them incompatible with 1.69. In other words, I'm not sure you even *could* update ALFA's current mods to 1.69 without going through so many drastic changes that you may as well start over. That's sort of the gist of the idea: If that much work needs to be done anyway, why not get new and prettier servers out of it?

So in essence there will be no vault connection since players would need to be stripped and re-stripped everytime they moved in and out. To suggest that all all four existing servers would need to be totally rebuilt to solve this problem is well... shocking.

Unless the goal is to slowly leech away some of the current playerbase ( I sincerely hope not) on a one-way trip to a server that is clearly not part of ALFA I would strongly suggest that the path of least resistance be that you and some other volunteers step up to help make 1.69 compatible with the existing servers. That would certainly be far less time consuming than rebuilding 4+ servers from scratch.

I've heard mention that current and new players could just use the revert patch to play here and honestly, that's not an option at all. If ALFAs intent is to wash it's hands of NWN1 and focus soley on NWN2... something that is bound to happen at some point anyway they should make one last push to get our servers supported by the latest Bioware patch and make it clear that support ends after that. Obviously that requires volunteers and as I said, doing that will be far less time consuming than rebuilding one server from the ground up, let alone four.

Kate

[Wynna]

So in essence there will be no vault connection since players would need to be stripped and re-stripped everytime they moved in and out.

No, they *wouldn't* be moved in and out. It would be a one way trip.

To suggest that all all four existing servers would need to be totally rebuilt to solve this problem is well... shocking.

Three points. First, do we really have four *active* NWN1 servers? I suspect we don't need that many. Second, I really don't think the current servers can be made compatible with 1.69, or at least the amount of work required would be equivalent to rebuilding. Third, a lot of stuff from the existing servers would probably import just fine into a clean build, so you don't have to rebuild everything.

Unless the goal is to slowly leech away some of the current playerbase ( I sincerely hope not) on a one-way trip to a server that is clearly not part of ALFA

How would it not be a part of ALFA? If a second set of NWN1 servers get set up and the NWN1 ALFA playerbase transfers over to them, isn't that now ALFA NWN1? Once the MKII servers are up, the 1.68 servers get retired.

Ballparking it, I'd say the amount of work necessary to rebuild 4 NWN1 servers would be roughly equivalent to building 1 NWN2 server, maybe less. Rebuilding only 2 would of course be half that, and I suspect 2 is all we really need.

Two NWN1 MKII servers and two NWN2 servers and ALFA is good to go for years.

[Wynna]

Facts:
1. NWN1 ALFA is currently incompatible with 1.69.
2. The amount of effort it would take to go through every single item, creature, placeable, etc. in the current ALFA NWN1 mods would be roughly equivalent to just rebuilding a mod from scratch.
3. The community already has made updated 1.69 content that is visually superior to existing ALFA hak material.
4. New players coming into ALFA NWN1 will expect the servers to be at 1.69 and have the new tilesets and other custom content available on the vault.

1. Yeah, it is. But that doesn't mean that updating the haks to accomodate the content in 1.69 has to break any of our current mods. The logic that creates this notion of breaking ALFA's mods comes from the idea that ALFA's resources - not Biowares - would be moved to eliminate conflicts.
2. It would be. But I also think a well-managed update that removes the need is entirely feasible. I'd be willing to head it - provided our next tech admin would allow it, 'course - and would probably have to conscript a couple NWN1ers to work backup for it. Definately doable.
3. Yes and no... ALFA definately sports some nice things that the community at large doesn't. I think our horse system (*huggles an Acadius plushie*) is done better than others. The inclusion of as many RP spells as we have - and the addition of functionality to some of them - isn't particularly common either, nor is a skillset as diverse as ours. Those who've played with the climb/jump scripts without a witch-hunt mentality tend to comment on the great versatility of the system, and our (one) pale master has the benefit of getting the appropriate caster level for most of his spells - even if the staple that is animate dead is still uncooperative there. That said, we're definately lagging on models/tiles/other pretties. Closing the gap, but yes, behind. Why not help renumber models to fill in the gaps? Bet it'd be less work than a rebuild.
4a. (1.69 and its stuff) Yup. No bones about that one.
4b. (community content) Eh? No... not so much, at least not in my experience. They tend to expect the majority of the CEP to be in haks, sure. I think there's an understanding that the sheer quantity of stuff on the vault prohibits putting too much stuff in the haks, and I think few people realise that 'color' settings on weapons can go higher than 4, and tend to accept a finite number of weapon models to play with on account of that. I think there's a belief in finite space on armor models, even though that one can go up to an obscene number (I think 65,000ish? pretty sure any line number that'd fit in an int would work for 2das)

[Wynna]

First, do we really have four *active* NWN1 servers?

Yes. NC, Sembia and Moonshaes all have weekly scheduled campaigns. Shadowdale, I suspect has some too, or at least will again soon.

I suspect we don't need that many.

Probably two servers woulds enough to acomodate all our remaining players and maybe even the different play styles. But fact is that most if not all remaining players would rather stay where they are if given the choice.

[Wynna]

First, do we really have four *active* NWN1 servers?

Yes. NC, Sembia and Moonshaes all have weekly scheduled campaigns. Shadowdale, I suspect has some too, or at least will again soon.

Suspect he says! Pshaw!

We have players on SD every day and a scheduled weekly session.

[Wynna]

Well, four it is then! :D

Sounds like ALFA isn't interested in the new 1.69 content in general, so this is an idea by the wayside. Makes life easier for me in all honesty. *shrugs*

[Wynna]

Sounds like ALFA isn't interested in the new 1.69 content in general, so this is an idea by the wayside. Makes life easier for me in all honesty. *shrugs*

Nobody said that. What's being said is we're more interested in integrating 1.69 content into what we currently have than in scraping it all and building new servers from scratch. Zel already said it's possible if well planned.

[Wynna]

Sounds like ALFA isn't interested in the new 1.69 content in general, so this is an idea by the wayside. Makes life easier for me in all honesty. *shrugs*

Nobody said that. What's being said is we're more interested in integrating 1.69 content into what we currently have than in scraping it all and building new servers from scratch. Zel already said it's possible if well planned.

What I read from Zel's post was it would be the 1.69 content that would be sidelined in favor of ALFA haks. I may have read that wrong.

[Mulu]

Sounds like ALFA isn't interested in the new 1.69 content in general, so this is an idea by the wayside. Makes life easier for me in all honesty. *shrugs*

Nobody said that. What's being said is we're more interested in integrating 1.69 content into what we currently have than in scraping it all and building new servers from scratch. Zel already said it's possible if well planned.

Alright, picking up where we left off. Zel said that 1.69 content would be sublimed in favor of ALFA content to make the existing servers compatible. Now, I have to admit that's probably a time saver, but it does remove the new content. Then again, I haven't compared the two directly so maybe the ALFA content is better than the 1.69 content. It also of course does not address the "old tileset" issue, but if the people playing NWN1 don't care about tileset upgrades, and we're not recruiting new players, well the easiest path to compatibility is probably to follow Zel's advice.

I still think an MKII offers enough new and better stuff to be worth the extra effort, but only if people want it. Importantly, either way there is much work to be done.