Suggestion: Player/DMs on TSM

oldgrayrogue · Post by **oldgrayrogue** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:35 pm

Due to a current lack of DM coverage in certain time zones on TSM, someone (I think MorbidKate) proposed that active players on TSM be allowed to DM there until a second server goes live. Concerns have been raised about a potential for metagaming in the DMA election threads if this is permitted. Given the maturity and attitude of most ALFAns willing to devote their time to DMing I don't think this is a huge concern, but would like to suggest what I believe is a simple solution that should alleviate most of the concern.

Why not have these Player/DMs limited to running only small one shot "spice" events? In other words, no complicated plots and story archs where meta is more of a concern. They need not even have access to the DM forums to do this -- only a DM client account. A steady stream of small spice events would serve to greatly increase immersion on TSM IMO. Having more DMs on to do these type of events would also free up the HDM and other "regular" DMs to focus on the larger story archs and campaigns.

Frankly I don't see why this couldn't work even after we have more than one live server. I played on a server that had this type of set up for over a year -- we called these "special" DMs RP Advisors or RPA's -- and meta was never once a problem. They had access to the client, could run only small spice events and had very limited authority to award gold or RP XP and that's it. It also was a great "proving ground" of sorts to identify DM talent. Some of our best DMs came up through the RPA ranks.

I know many purists like campaign style DMing, but IMHO lots of spice helps to bring the server to life, and brings a DMed experience to the largest number of players whether or not they are involved in a large plot or campaign.

darrenhfx · Post by **darrenhfx** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:49 pm

I am very interested in finding a solution to the issue of DM recruitment for TSM and am more than willing to listen and consider such ideas. I am hoping that our members are equally interested in listening to such ideas in the interest of filling the DM gap until we get a second server up and we have option to be able to play on one server and DM and the other.

White Warlock · Post by **White Warlock** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:50 pm

hi oldgray,

your thoughts remind me of something i proposed, (and it was accepted by the admins at the time but was later lost in the scrolling forum of death) in which there are actually three DM standings. One being HDM, the other ADM, and the other a Guest DM, who does not have access to the server DM forums, but has access to the server itself, allowing them to perform limited DMing via possessing nameless NPCs and providing a degree of entertainment/participation via either DMing, or taking upon the role of an NPC guide/cannonfodder. I see no real issue with this and it would hardly detract from the core of a server's ambiance. It would also preserve the integrity of server plots and 'dm-eyes-only' details that guest dms should not have access to.

psycho_leo · Post by **psycho_leo** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:13 pm

Guest DMs as far as I'm aware were also not allowed to play in the servers they were "visiting".

The problem with meta concerns is that it's not restricted only to what's posted in the DM forums, such as plot notes and PC bios, but also relates to what a member has access to from within the DM client.

That said, I'm not overly opposed to making an exception to the rule until a second server is granted live status.

MShady · Post by **MShady** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:07 pm

As DMA, this is what I would want to do on this issue, copied from my thread/blog.

DMing and Playing in NWN2

It has been pointed out we are hurting for NWN2 DMs. Part of the reason is because people do not want to give up playing NWN2 to DM on our only server.

Until we open another NWN2 server up, I support this in a limited fashion. This is an area where the DMA needs to use discretion however.

There is an enormous possability for abuse and meta gaming doing this. Those ARE legit concerns.

The reality is we need DMs more than we need to worry about this. We have NO US night coverage right now.

Of course, the situation will be closely monitored at an Admin level and by anyone else playing on the server. Only the most experienced, trusted DMs would be allowed to do this and only with the TSM HDM's consent.

I am going to err on the side of trust here. Violation of said trust would be dealt with harshly. Anyone offered this oppurtunity to help the community in a time of need will be someone considered above reapproach.

When a second NWN2 server stands up, this program would be ended.

oldgrayrogue · Post by **oldgrayrogue** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:23 pm

If Player/Dm's don't have access to plot info via the DM forums, the only opportunity for meta I see is the access they get to player stats/alignment/equipment via the client. Like "Oh wow -- toon x is really a follower of Cyric -- wow never would have guessed" and then using or revealing that knowledge which is a legit concern. However, at some point we really need to trust and have faith in those we permit to DM. Metagamers can be punished via the rules as always. I think the potential benefits outweigh the risks. It is a game after all. Much more fun at the risk of an asshat or two metagaming is worth it IMO. If anything it helps to identify the metagamers.

And Warlock -- what you describe is precisely what I am talking about -- one shot spice events involving NPC interaction. One we had on my old server was a geniie bottle that a PC would find and then the Geniie of course who never ended up granting you anything you really wished for =P But it was still loads of fun. Even just possessing a merchant or like an Argent Legion guard and interacting improves immersion IMO. EX: A guard runs into town "there are bandits on the road!" PC's go out and fight bandits. End of event. You guys now the drill I'm sure.

Post by **ayergo** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:30 pm

Or hop on a beta server when there isn't any DMing!

You can be any class you want in Beta and have as many chars as you want!

MorbidKate · Post by **MorbidKate** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:48 pm

Concerns over meta are valid but not impossible to overcome. Again, this would ONLY be temporary fix until a 2nd server goes Live so NWN2 players aren't forced to choose between not playing at all or DMing. Experienced DMs who are well known to the community should be the requirement to play & DM and I trust HDM Darrenhfx to choose wisely and provide oversight, along with the DMA if/when needed. Put it this way, if someone like Electryc offered to DM on TSM if he could still play I'd have no problem with it whatsover.

Kate

Rick7475 · Post by **Rick7475** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:35 pm

Actually, the DM App is also killing interest in DM'ing on TSM as well as Rusty's DMA changes. I know two DM's that would sign up right now if it were not for the DM APP and Rusty's policies.

Also, don't forget the LA is a DM on TSM and a potential DMA is on TSM, which means their time will be limited. Also, several of the DM's on TSM are constantly building and very busy fixing bugs and adding content that players are asking for.

Though due to my father's illness I have had to cut back considerable over the next few weeks, but I was building 90% of the time and I have a huge backlog of things to add and several PM's a day requesting new things, so my DM time is extremely limited. In fact, after a week of building I hardly have the energy to DM. Darrenfx is also HDM, which means he cannot DM as much as an ADM because he has to administer the server. Wynna is cutting back over the summer to spend time with her family.

Bottom line:

Make it easier for TSM DM's by getting rid of the DM APP ) how many many many many many many many times have I said that???)

Lusipher · Post by **Lusipher** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:44 pm

Problem is Rick...do you just let anyone DM? I think it would depend on the person. I know for a fact people who have no experience with the DM client can be wonderful DMs. I started out not knowing anything about the NWN1 DM client till Sareena showed me a lot of tricks. Alby helped me a lot too.

I can see problems with DMs being players knowing DM knowledge. I wish there was a way to actually "nerf" some aspects of the DM client so say "random quest DM" could run something fun for many, but not have information or be able to use certain features in the DM client.

Personally, Id have DM fair one night. Have people who want to DM go through class like they ran before. Just let them get a feel for the client and the wands etc or whateve is being used now and then let those potential DMs train on the OAS with an experienced DM for 1 to 2 weeks. Once they get a feel for it and the Experienced DM has seen their potential or lack thereof they should be allowed PADM status.

We use to have a ton of OAS stuff going on in NWN1. I think we could seriously get the OAS2 going for something like this.

MShady · Post by **MShady** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:49 pm

Outside of totally new DMs, I'm in favor of doing away with the DM Application. The only reason I'd want them to complete the DM Application is so I have an idea on who they are.

How does that sound to you?

Rick7475 wrote:Actually, the DM App is also killing interest in DM'ing on TSM as well as Rusty's DMA changes. I know two DM's that would sign up right now if it were not for the DM APP and Rusty's policies.

Also, don't forget the LA is a DM on TSM and a potential DMA is on TSM, which means their time will be limited. Also, several of the DM's on TSM are constantly building and very busy fixing bugs and adding content that players are asking for.

Though due to my father's illness I have had to cut back considerable over the next few weeks, but I was building 90% of the time and I have a huge backlog of things to add and several PM's a day requesting new things, so my DM time is extremely limited. In fact, after a week of building I hardly have the energy to DM. Darrenfx is also HDM, which means he cannot DM as much as an ADM because he has to administer the server. Wynna is cutting back over the summer to spend time with her family.

Bottom line:

Make it easier for TSM DM's by getting rid of the DM APP ) how many many many many many many many times have I said that???)

oldgrayrogue · Post by **oldgrayrogue** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:57 pm

On my former server RPA's received training on the client from an experienced DM. Their first "spice event" was run with an experienced DM helping. (we normally invited experienced players who would be understanding of mistakes). If additional training was needed, we did so. If not it was off to the races. Everyone logged their events on a thread with DM access so the DM's knew what was going on. And we did this on a live server =) Using the OAS2 for the training is a grand idea. Don't see why something similar wouldn't work here. Of course players with prior DM experience who already know the client would be even better.

Sintaqx · Post by **Sintaqx** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:38 pm

Trust is the key to making something like this possible. If people were worried that the DM/Player would be abusing their trust by granting inordinate amounts of xp and gear then say that an RP DM cannot create/distribute items/gold nor grant XP. Give them a thread where they can post their event, the participants, times, reasons for bonus xp, and requested XP/material rewards for the participants. The full DMs could create requested items in some pstorage for the rp DM to pick up, but any gold/xp would need to be given by a full DM.

If an RP DM is suspected of doling out xp it would be easy enough to parse the server logs for the event.

The DMs could give RP dms suggestions on little spice events they could do to move over-arching storylines along (like an orc raid, bandits on the road, tracking down an escaped prisoner, etc)

I think granting limited dm abilities to a trusted player to help move storylines along and provide some interaction between NPCs and PCs would be great, I'd volunteer in a heartbeat.

NickD · Post by **NickD** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:01 pm

Oh, please no. No DMing on the server you play on!

It was only the Isle of Skaug, but Exodus had one (non ALFAn) DM who was also a player that my character had got into some almost CvC with prior to him becoming a DM... I felt like I had to suddenly be all walking on eggshells with his character after that and it turned me off the game a bit.

MorbidKate · Post by **MorbidKate** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:36 pm

NickD wrote:Oh, please no. No DMing on the server you play on!

It was only the Isle of Skaug, but Exodus had one (non ALFAn) DM who was also a player that my character had got into some almost CvC with prior to him becoming a DM... I felt like I had to suddenly be all walking on eggshells with his character after that and it turned me off the game a bit.

I think the HDM and the incoming DMA are/will be perfectly capable of dealing with any potential "conflicts" as they come up until BG goes Live. Darren selects who he trusts the most to play and DM and any player can opt out of being DMd by someone they have IC conflicts with. Once BG is up, the rules revert back to normal.

As for the DM app, I see no problem with filling one out if it's straight forward. As a HDM I preferred to chat with interested persons to get a feel for how they might fit in with the crew. Once thing is certain though, you need a deep enough bullpen to cover for DMs who are AFK for a while, either because of RL, building, etc.

Kate