*waddles in dragging a soap box
*stands on soap box and addresses the crowd
Because I missed Fluff’s post on governmental reform before Wynner came in and sent everyone to their timeout corner, allow me to muse a few thoughts as someone who was part of the original reform group.
Firstly, Fluff, keep kicking out the ideas. Your thoughtfulness and passion are compelling.
Secondly: change things if they need it, but keep these keys:
It should be open (everyone sees the process working)
It should have a mechanism for change, both in people and in process
It must be built around common values
Everything else is negotiable.
Thirdly: ALFA needs to clean house. I know what you’re thinking, the last thing a community stressed for membership needs is to kick out some of its longstanding members. On the contrary, you have some members who are rude, self-centered, and foul-mouthed, and their limited contribution is insignificant to the public relations damage they do. ALFA should be a members-only select club where only those with maturity and civility need apply.
Coming into ALFA to enjoy some spirited adventure and building friendships should be a privilege, and the effective policing of its membership is the honorable duty of those who cherish such values. Quite candidly, I look for certain names when I browse the forums, and read those posts to make sure my presumptions are still valid, and resolve to remain away from ALFA as a result. I can only imagine what a new person must think when they see the garbage I see, and it is little wonder retention is such an issue.
Lastly, do one thing, and do it well. Trying to be all Faerun is a hugely oppressive goal, one which has been the Achilles heel of this project. One thriving server to which I can log on, find some like-minded adventurers, a fair DM, and go have some adventure is great. If/when that gets too busy, then perhaps a second, etc... 14 empty servers with people separated by space, time zone, level, alignment, DM availability, and free time is a waste of a lot of building, and only adds to the frustration of folks who simply want to have a game.
I thank you for your attention. Here’s hoping you all have fun…seriously, go have some fun…I am.
*steps down and waddles off…pauses…sighs….continues to waddle away
Governmental Reform: a waterfowl's perspective
Moderator: ALFA Administrators
Governmental Reform: a waterfowl's perspective
Duck One
Some guy who used to do some work 'round here.
Some guy who used to do some work 'round here.
Well, with NWN2 coming up with only TSM... seems like for at least a little while ALFA will effectively be what you want (so long as you can keep away from the forums).
Come back Duck!
Seriously though, you make a fair point... no-one in this community (let alone any other) deserves to be treated in a demeaning fashion or to be disrespected as is all too common in these forums now and again. However, that said, who makes the decision on who to kick out? That's a pretty harsh punishment "you can't hang out here with your friends any more!" which would necessarily divide the community. And every community is going to have some level of division, it's just a matter of whether or not people with differing opinions can respect each other and deal with those differences constructively rather than destructively. It's easier to treat people negatively when you're at your keyboard typing text than it is in most other situations.
That said, everyone that is still here has shown that they can, in one way or another, let it slide and go on to pursue the far greater goal of nerdly DnD fun. That's not to say that everyone has been on the receiving end of the same level of disrespect and verbal abuse, but it is saying that on some level they can live with each other and work together when required.
If we were to kick out the jerks, whose to say when someone is being a jerk? You may think someone I can't stand is totally terrific (possibly for that very reason!) even though we're both quite reasonable people. My ALFAn friends and experiences are a pretty important part of my life (note to self, schedule time for serious reflection on this...) and if someone were to take that away from me against my will, I'd be pretty upset. Banning must be looked at as an absolute last-case resort. Besides, people do pretty good at kicking themselves out when they don't work out. It's not usually a lot of fun to hang around a place where everyone doesn't like you.
As to your larger point of reform... yes it's needed. The current admin structure is strangely lopsided and doesn't really have an apporpriately-elected hierarchy. We've got two sides to ALFA, the tech side and the social side which is admined separately and currently somehow works together out of the kindness of their hearts. But if the tech guys disagreed with the social guys, well, then what? We've got a "lead" admin that isn't elected by everyone they actually lead, so it almost seems like a hollow title. The DM admin is elected by the DMs... and some other random people (myself included, go fig). The player admin is actually the closest thing to being elected at-large and is a pretty powerful position in all but title. I dunno, I just wish constituencies and spheres of influence were more appropriately laid out, but we have what we have... and surprisingly, it works fairly well considering how many other NWN communities are so much less successful.
Sure, there's horrible drama and disrespect now and again, but this is a large community, way too many people to get to know personally, and as long as those people you don't know well disagree with you now and again - and strongly, nonetheless - then there will be flames when someone gets bent out of shape by someone they don't know well. And it's easy to let those flames fly when you're just sitting in front of your keyboard.
If I didn't think everyone here didn't REALLY want us ALL to succeed at our shared nerdly pasttime, then I wouldn't be here.
Thanks for reading,
T
Come back Duck!
Seriously though, you make a fair point... no-one in this community (let alone any other) deserves to be treated in a demeaning fashion or to be disrespected as is all too common in these forums now and again. However, that said, who makes the decision on who to kick out? That's a pretty harsh punishment "you can't hang out here with your friends any more!" which would necessarily divide the community. And every community is going to have some level of division, it's just a matter of whether or not people with differing opinions can respect each other and deal with those differences constructively rather than destructively. It's easier to treat people negatively when you're at your keyboard typing text than it is in most other situations.
That said, everyone that is still here has shown that they can, in one way or another, let it slide and go on to pursue the far greater goal of nerdly DnD fun. That's not to say that everyone has been on the receiving end of the same level of disrespect and verbal abuse, but it is saying that on some level they can live with each other and work together when required.
If we were to kick out the jerks, whose to say when someone is being a jerk? You may think someone I can't stand is totally terrific (possibly for that very reason!) even though we're both quite reasonable people. My ALFAn friends and experiences are a pretty important part of my life (note to self, schedule time for serious reflection on this...) and if someone were to take that away from me against my will, I'd be pretty upset. Banning must be looked at as an absolute last-case resort. Besides, people do pretty good at kicking themselves out when they don't work out. It's not usually a lot of fun to hang around a place where everyone doesn't like you.
As to your larger point of reform... yes it's needed. The current admin structure is strangely lopsided and doesn't really have an apporpriately-elected hierarchy. We've got two sides to ALFA, the tech side and the social side which is admined separately and currently somehow works together out of the kindness of their hearts. But if the tech guys disagreed with the social guys, well, then what? We've got a "lead" admin that isn't elected by everyone they actually lead, so it almost seems like a hollow title. The DM admin is elected by the DMs... and some other random people (myself included, go fig). The player admin is actually the closest thing to being elected at-large and is a pretty powerful position in all but title. I dunno, I just wish constituencies and spheres of influence were more appropriately laid out, but we have what we have... and surprisingly, it works fairly well considering how many other NWN communities are so much less successful.
Sure, there's horrible drama and disrespect now and again, but this is a large community, way too many people to get to know personally, and as long as those people you don't know well disagree with you now and again - and strongly, nonetheless - then there will be flames when someone gets bent out of shape by someone they don't know well. And it's easy to let those flames fly when you're just sitting in front of your keyboard.
If I didn't think everyone here didn't REALLY want us ALL to succeed at our shared nerdly pasttime, then I wouldn't be here.
Thanks for reading,
T
Currently laying the smackdown on Faerun as: Keryn Tel'Jora, who is XXX-TREME!!!.
Currently explaining the meaninglessness of it all as Vizian Nazyr.
Currently pointing out all other characters' shortcomings as Stephen the Archer.
Currently explaining the meaninglessness of it all as Vizian Nazyr.
Currently pointing out all other characters' shortcomings as Stephen the Archer.
T,
The way you upgrade the civility of the community is quite simple: you set standards of behavior and enforce them strictly. There need not be a witch-hunt, as those who lack the maturity or self-control would eventually single themselves out. There are communities that exist that do this rather successfully, the rules are posted plainly for all to see, and those who can not manage to abide them are shown the door. Do they have disagreements? Of course, but they are handled with civility and decorum, and the benefit they enjoy is an attractive atmosphere.
My guess is that the amount of enforcement you'd have to do would greatly diminish once a few examples had transpired. As for the value of some of these folks, I'm sure they're passionate, but is that the point? People are seldom jerks unless they feel strongly about a subject, but that doesn't excuse their behavior. Consider instead the number of people ALFA loses who decide whatever benefit ALFA may offer is not worth the ugliness that permiates the culture here. How many more willing hands might you have if that were to change?
If you feel ALFA offers something great, then show it respect, and insist upon it from others.
The way you upgrade the civility of the community is quite simple: you set standards of behavior and enforce them strictly. There need not be a witch-hunt, as those who lack the maturity or self-control would eventually single themselves out. There are communities that exist that do this rather successfully, the rules are posted plainly for all to see, and those who can not manage to abide them are shown the door. Do they have disagreements? Of course, but they are handled with civility and decorum, and the benefit they enjoy is an attractive atmosphere.
My guess is that the amount of enforcement you'd have to do would greatly diminish once a few examples had transpired. As for the value of some of these folks, I'm sure they're passionate, but is that the point? People are seldom jerks unless they feel strongly about a subject, but that doesn't excuse their behavior. Consider instead the number of people ALFA loses who decide whatever benefit ALFA may offer is not worth the ugliness that permiates the culture here. How many more willing hands might you have if that were to change?
If you feel ALFA offers something great, then show it respect, and insist upon it from others.
Duck One
Some guy who used to do some work 'round here.
Some guy who used to do some work 'round here.
If the rules are specific and clear, then I tend to agree. The issue lies in the ambiguity of "showing respect." If that means something specific laid out in rules that are straight-forward to apply (in other words, so that the spirit of the law and the letter of the law are consistent) then I think your plan has merit.
However, ALFA has always had a difficult time trying to determine which approach it wants to take at regulating civility: the 'teacher in the classroom' approach or the 'democratic' approach. A teacher in a classroom simply pulls kids apart if he/she notices conflict. "Don't talk that way to each other at school, etc...." This is effective when there's a good teacher in charge, but when there's not, then it results in serious injustice. The 'democratic' approach avoids this issue altogether by letting the disrespect dice fall where they may and letting everyone sort themselves out afterwards, which will inherently come with some level of disrespect.
The ALFA environment may not be large enough to sustain the latter, but the alternative is very risky. I agree on principle to be sure, but in practice I take pause at such an approach.
However, ALFA has always had a difficult time trying to determine which approach it wants to take at regulating civility: the 'teacher in the classroom' approach or the 'democratic' approach. A teacher in a classroom simply pulls kids apart if he/she notices conflict. "Don't talk that way to each other at school, etc...." This is effective when there's a good teacher in charge, but when there's not, then it results in serious injustice. The 'democratic' approach avoids this issue altogether by letting the disrespect dice fall where they may and letting everyone sort themselves out afterwards, which will inherently come with some level of disrespect.
The ALFA environment may not be large enough to sustain the latter, but the alternative is very risky. I agree on principle to be sure, but in practice I take pause at such an approach.
Currently laying the smackdown on Faerun as: Keryn Tel'Jora, who is XXX-TREME!!!.
Currently explaining the meaninglessness of it all as Vizian Nazyr.
Currently pointing out all other characters' shortcomings as Stephen the Archer.
Currently explaining the meaninglessness of it all as Vizian Nazyr.
Currently pointing out all other characters' shortcomings as Stephen the Archer.
In the past whenever any person or group has tried to "raise the bar" here, what results is sectarian violence and strife. ALFA is not a homogeneous community, it's diverse, with diverse playing interests and diverse opinions about the game and diverse opinions about governance and even decorum. We're down to around ... 60? active members now. Kicking out half to try to raise the bar would really only result in some factions taking over while others leave. It would be a quake all over again. Heck, most of the drama around here comes from the admin core. Most of the rest comes from former members who can't resist posting....
Hopefully having a new live NWN2 server will put more game into everyone. I even bought MotB yesterday.
Hopefully having a new live NWN2 server will put more game into everyone. I even bought MotB yesterday.
Neverwinter Connections Dungeon Master since 2002!
Click for the best roleplaying!
On NWVault by me:
X-INV, X-COM, War of the Worlds, Lantan University.
Click for the best roleplaying!
On NWVault by me:
X-INV, X-COM, War of the Worlds, Lantan University.
I disagree. It has been done successfully in the past. The problem is, however, a point in successfully raising the bar is that involves a slow change, not an instant, quick change, so often slips notice. Go and check the current threads for insults and attacks then go and look back even a year.
< Signature Free Zone >
It's worth pointing out that the voting constituencies for all admin positions were put to the HDMs recently, and they decided who voted for which positions. If that needs changing, as ever, the mechanisms are in place to change them - and indeed they worked when ADMs were allowed to vote for Lead in December 2006.
In the same set of polls, the idea that all positions should be voted for by the whole of ALFA was very poorly supported.
Fundamentally I agree with your guidelines, Duck: I just think we have them all. The process is detailed in the charter on the wiki, and changes to that are in the (?open) CC proposals forum. I can't comment on the day-to-day running of the admin, but I get a fair idea of what's going on from the busy NWN2 fora, PA decisions, and so on. The mechanism for change I've talked about, and common values I think are a given.
Anyway - back to lurking for me.
In the same set of polls, the idea that all positions should be voted for by the whole of ALFA was very poorly supported.
Fundamentally I agree with your guidelines, Duck: I just think we have them all. The process is detailed in the charter on the wiki, and changes to that are in the (?open) CC proposals forum. I can't comment on the day-to-day running of the admin, but I get a fair idea of what's going on from the busy NWN2 fora, PA decisions, and so on. The mechanism for change I've talked about, and common values I think are a given.
Anyway - back to lurking for me.
I'm not sure how revealing this poll is. Taking a small group of people who wield supreme power over sections of ALFA and asking them who they would like to pick the people who can take it away is bound to give a loaded response. It is in an HDM's best interest, but not necessarily ALFA's best interest, to keep voting groups small and controllable.Cassiel wrote:In the same set of polls, the idea that all positions should be voted for by the whole of ALFA was very poorly supported.
Obviously, getting the opinions of HDMs is still the method of change with precident; I just mean to suggest that it might not be the best methodology, and that the truly revealing thing about the above poll is that HDMs resisted pushed toward the more democratic a year and a half ago, save for when that democratic extension included only positions they could appoint.
At first glance, I was ready to give up the fight... wow, people were given a say in whether they wanted to vote on lead or not... until I read zelk's post, so I went back and checked the poll and an owlbear jumped out and mauled me (figuratively, har har).
Total Votes: 14
I would like to point out that the definition of a vested interest in ALFA has changed since we started accepting donations... unless we're not accepting money from players, of course.
Total Votes: 14
I would like to point out that the definition of a vested interest in ALFA has changed since we started accepting donations... unless we're not accepting money from players, of course.
Currently laying the smackdown on Faerun as: Keryn Tel'Jora, who is XXX-TREME!!!.
Currently explaining the meaninglessness of it all as Vizian Nazyr.
Currently pointing out all other characters' shortcomings as Stephen the Archer.
Currently explaining the meaninglessness of it all as Vizian Nazyr.
Currently pointing out all other characters' shortcomings as Stephen the Archer.
Actually, I would think that just before a transition to more new HDMs for NWN 2, while we only have 4 active HDMs (which are for NWN 1), is a pretty bad time to try to roll out constitutional changes - sure, it might work, but I think the risks of having such a small voting body are pretty apparent.
The power of concealment lies in revelation.