John Rogers on DD4E

[Joos]

Well, this quote got me to chime in here, as I just got my go ahead to talk a little about playtesting. And since there's no way I can profit from my blurbage, there should be no lingering doubts about whether it's because I'm looking for a future gig. Although anyone who even suspects that of Ari should be ashamed of themselves.

For those of you who don't know me, I'm John Rogers. I write the Blue Beetle comic book for DC, wrote and produced the pilot for a TV version of Warren Ellis' Global Frequency, and I occasionally write movies. I'm not a game designer, but primarily a writer in multiple formats. I only mention this because some of you have been looking for feedback from a non-designer, and so you can evaluate my opinions in the context of how I use the game.

4E is the edition that promotes storytelling to primacy in the gameplay.

It does so by streamlining the rules -- by giving you cleaner, more relevant information for the situations when you actually need information. My first thought when I read the ruels was "Hmm, somebody at WOTC got a hold of The Paradox of Choice ." There are multiple levels of choice in playing the game and building the characters, but now there only mechanics for those choices for when they are mechanically relevant.

Don't think "simple." Think "clean."

I think the reason there's so much buzz around 4E combat is because that's where the most massive fun-change has come in, and so it naturally dominates discussion and perception. By the time my NDA playtest group got through our first session, we'd (unintentionally) fought three massive combats in one four hour session, many multiple opponents each time. When we finished we all kind of sat back, glassy-eyed, and went "wow." Except for the rogue. He was punching the air and cackling "More stabby! MORE STABBY!"

Because 3E combat had gotten so ... er .. gunky, combat's the first thing you notice when playing 4E. It's hard not to talk about it. A bit like if you bought a new car and got it up to 250 mph. The fact that it has a great interior, amazing safety features and a kick-butt stereo never really comes up in your first conversations about the car.

There are mechanics in place in the rules, separate from the combat rules, to fill in the non-combat tools of a PC/NPC/monster. Stat blocks are there for when they're needed -- when you need to look at stats. In a block. Fast. Like, during combat. Not only that, as the DM I felt I had all the info I needed for the bits I needed help with (combat) but the freedom not to be bound by unnecessary information when we were roleplaying. That's what prompted me to post -- the above gentleman's concern that "If you want [monsters] to use to something besides combat it requires houseruling (=preparation)." What is that "something" besides basic combat? Roleplaying, right? What in that stat block actively contradicts any roleplaying, and more so, what more in the stat block do you need to use it in a story? Each monster (as I understand it) will come with well-nigh a full page of flavor text in the MM. That should be the base for the non-combat-y bits, while the stat block is the wrench you use for the combat-y bits.


That's why, as a writer, the edition tickles me pink. No more rummaging about for the appropriate monster with the appropriate trained skills and appropriate background to fit my plot -- or adjusting the fiddly stats of cool monsters to wedge them into my PC's level and story setting. No more building NPC's for hours so they not only do what I want them to do, they also have every fiddly bit necessary to work but that I'll never, ever access in-game. Enough detail to guide, never so much to cripple.

As far as simple/boring combat -- that Pit Fiend? He's elite, so there's going to be two of them, summoning in multiple other high level monsters with their own funky abilities, all set in a matrix against the multiple combat powers and spells of your five own high-level NPC's. While some people seem disappointed by the lack of options in this situation and somehow see MORE prep here, the prospect of running that combat on its own in 3E would make me, as a DM, throw up in my mouth. With 4E, I'd have no problem running it. And that's why a streamlined mechanic system is important for storytelling, because it's easier to throw a wide variety of stuff at my players, and easier to play out the results of said throwage. Whenever I have more choices in storytelling, for me, that's always a good thing.

In short, my playtest experience for what it's worth:

Less prep time for the DM, with no loss of versatility in combat, and plenty of added value and unexpected strategies. Monster design is superior for what I need, which is versatility in the service of storytelling. Trap design in particular made me want to kiss Dave Noonan on the mouth. While roleplaying, we had more freedom, because when you actually need a roll in the roleplaying you're working off a cleaner system, rather than page-hunting for one of the independently designed subsystems.

Take it as you will.

Sounds excellent! Personally, I always found the combat to be a too big part of the 3 and 3.5 editions, so this is wonderful news, at least for me!

[indio]

Interesting.

The thing I always liked about D&D was the 'fun with maths' aspect, so I always liked stats, THAC0's and negative ACs. But for live D&D Sleep-Overs, 4e sounds great.

[coach]

okay, so why not make TWO new sourcebooks:

1) Alternate Combat System for Dungeons and Dragons RPG

2) Alternate Magic System for Dungeons and Dragons RPG

?

because 4e = cha-ching

i don't really care other than the fact that they feel the need to tear up Faerun

if they'd've just let FR fans move on to 1376 or whatever the next year is year, then go for it, but the deicides and magocides and all the other RSE's are crap

[HATEFACE]

What does MM stand for?

[psycho_leo]

Monster Manual

[Lusipher]

durka durka, Helios

[Thangorn]

2nd Edition was and still is fine for storytelling.. 3/3.5 Edition is a real pain in the butt to work out mechanics for monsters and NPCs.. its true. Hence the reason I dont go there in pnp.

While that feedback sounds interesting.. I'm still very meh about going there.

2nd Ed PO 4tw!

[Leareth]

From what I know of 4e it would never work with the nwn2 engine we have. It's to big of departure. That information I've seen indicates they've fused alot of skills together and all the classes are /very/ different. For a fighter what weapon he uses dictates if certain skills can be used. Wizards are more item focused, they need ritual items to cast. Sorcers are more like wild mages and energy from their spell sticks to them. The feat structure we know is out the window.

Sounds like fun stuff for PnP and I'm kinda excited about it, but for ALFA it's nothing we can touch since alot of the base mechanics have chanced completely.

Leareth

[Electryc]

2nd Ed PO 4tw!

Yus Yus, I still get excited about the term, "THAC0" and think -10 AC is sexy!

[Lusipher]

Im just glad in 4e that gnomes are gone. You also cant play monks and druids. Another class too, but I forget what it was. their adding Warlock and War Priest or something I think.

Ive heard that you actually dont roll up characters either. There are like given stats you start out with, but then again I heard there was a point buy system so a lot of confusing info.

btw can someone tell me the new books that came out that refer to the Spellplague? I heard some info was in the new R.A. Salvatorie book with Drizzt and the Orc King and I heard a lot of info was in some Wizard series or something. Could someone post what books that the info showed up in please?

[Lusipher]

If you get a chance log in at WoTC today and read the new Richard Baker piece about the Spellplague and what it did to faerun. Good stuff!

Im seeing Elminster speak in the Year of the Ageless One, 1479.

[Mulu]

Ah yes, the never ending "progression" of D&D. Myself I think the game peaked at around version "1.5," 1st AD&D plus Dragon Magazine and other supplements.


Basic Set D&D



1st Edition AD&D



2nd Edition AD&D



3rd Edition D&D



4th Edition D&D

[Wynna]

You put way too much work into that, Mulu, but it was pretty funny.

[PensivesWetness]

MUUUUUUUUUUUUULLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!

(MUUUUUUUUUUUUULLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!)

(MUUUUUUUUUUUUULLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!)




Elven Magic-User Melf

just to be techinical dear... it was 2nd Ed that changed the MU's to Wizards i believe...

/me huggles the Baba ICLU Lover MooMooMulu

[Mulu]

Doh! You're right!

At least I made Wynna smile.