Use Your Illusion II

[JaydeMoon]

Now, do illusions get modifiers based on how far from what is actually there you are trying to disguise it?

The save is determined by:

10 + Caster Attribute Bonus + Spell Level + Feat Modifiers

Save is determined by:

d20 + Will bonus.

At it's most basic level, a level 1 wizard with a 16 intelligence and Spell Focus Illusion casting Disguise Self sets up a DC of 16 and an NPC with a +3 Will Save need roll a 13 or better to pierce that illusion.

Does it get any easier or harder based on what's really going on?

One would think that a woman disguised as a man but then sounding like a woman would set off more mental alarms than a man disguised as a different man sounding like a man?

It then comes down to using your illusions to create more minor and subtle changes vs gross changes that are more easily disbelieved.

The illusory floor over a pit trap, harder to disbelieve if it's an illusion of a solid wooden floor cast over a rotting, unstable wooden floor versus illusory granite over empty space?

Where does this get reflected, if at all?

Easy answer is DM's call, but I was wondering how different folks might approach this and the reasons why?

[psycho_leo]

Sure. If the illusion is used to produce subtle differences it should be harder to see through than one that completely alters someone or something. Not that NWN would convey it, but realistically your other senses would react to the illusion as well. If something doesn't sound or smell like it looks, something is off.

If you disguise yourself like a pampered noble woman but smells like you last bathed a month ago, someone will notice. If you speak like a ilitterate commoner someone will notice.

[Zelknolf]

Illusions are divided into 3 categories, when it comes to spotting them:

Illusions that present proof that they are illusory give no save; they're automatically spotted.

For example, if one kicks a Thayan knight disguised as a beggar in rags via an illusion spell (Diguise Self or Seeming) in the naughty bits and gets the "clunk" of steel, the feel of a cod piece on his foot, and the rattle of gussets, that illusion is gone for the kicker.


Illusions that present strong evidene of not being real, or illusions spotted by others (who then tell you that it's not real) allow an immediate second saving throw at +4.

For example, if our junk-kicking ruffian in the previous example said "It's an illusion! That's a Thayan knight!" to onlookers, everyone who sees the beggar and hears the accusation gets a saving throw at +4, as they're not faced with proof (they didn't feel a cod piece) but they're presented with evidence and reason for suspicion (a "clunk" and our ruffian's word).


Illusions that don't stick out give saves when interacted with (WotC posted an article that BB linked to in your other thread, essentially identifying "interaction" as spending a standard action on anything with, at, or about the illusion.) at their usual difficulties and save bonuses.

If our Thayan knight didn't wear armor under that illusion, and just took a stiff hit to the bits, our ruffian would get a save (having spent a standard action kicking the fellow) at the usual DC, and wouldn't get another save unless evidence was presented as to the falseness of the appearance. If the attack happened in Waterdeep and fellow uttered obscenities in Mulhorandi instead of Chondathan, there would probably be cause for a save there (unless, of course, the illusion made it look like the beggar aught to speak Mulhorandi, but that's inviting people to spend some time eyeing that illusion, too.)

[JaydeMoon]

Would you call those the only 'modifiers'?

Automatic Disbelief and a +4 'reason to disbelieve' modifier aside, would you state that there are no other possible modifiers to the will save?

Or would you place the modifiers elsewhere?

Study and interaction perhaps requiring a successful spot roll first to notice something 'amiss', which could be modified based on things like lighting, clarity of vision, difference between what's really there and what's represented, etc.

I mean, it seems to me that it would be harder to tell someone was illused and then to pierce that illusion if it was a man disguised as a man that I am talking to on a foggy night than an armored woman disguised as a rag wearing beggar on a bright clear day.

What sort of system might we employ to reflect that? Or do we just say, "Nope, these are the rules, these are the modifiers, nothing else contributes or detracts. End of story."

[psycho_leo]

What sort of system might we employ to reflect that? Or do we just say, "Nope, these are the rules, these are the modifiers, nothing else contributes or detracts. End of story."

On PnP games I try not to get too tied by published rules and deviate when it makes sense. But then again, ina PnP game it's a bunch of friends and only one DM. And that's not teh ALFA reality. In ALFA I do my best to adhere to published rules and unless it's something everyone agrees on, I try to deviate only when it benefits the player.

[Brokenbone]

It almost sounds like you're talking about circumstance modifiers... though usually circumstance modifiers have to be spelled out someplace in order to use them.

There is no chart out there, for illusions, like "happens to be dark, observer gets -2" or "is in bed with observer, observer gets a +2", such as is seen in the Disguise skill description (not verbatim, but see the chart if really interested).

Still, since a DM typically does their rolling behind the scenes, if you felt that "pitch dark forest where encounter distance is 1000 yards, and everyone is distracted by an unrelated combat" gave someone employing an illusion a slight advantage against observers (slight being maybe a -2 to saves), no one is likely to fault you. Same with giving a slightly boosted chance of detection if it's someone taking centre stage at a talent show, and trying to impersonate a famous bard by using ghost sound and some other figmenty stuff.

Any case, the modifiers mentioned above are as far as I know, the only ones in the rules, but lighting conditions, distances, distractions or lack thereof, maybe even in cases the familiarity of the viewers with what is being duplicated by illusion (i.e., siege engineer says to himself "Trebuchets don't work like that, something's wrong!" or "My wife's bottom didn't seem this big yesterday?"), hey, all falls under DM discretion to run the game as seems to best make sense at the time.

[Zelknolf]

The only time that spot comes into play, by the ol' ruleset, when dealing with illusory disguise is when the spell is being used to make a specific disguise (i.e. disguise self to make oneself look like Azoun IV) which involves the usual disguise/spot skill checks, with modifiers based on who the person is and how well each party knows the person. In theory, the illusions are exactly what the caster imagined them to be, and these checks would be based on how good the caster is with details.

In these cases, interaction would give a will save (vs. the illusion) followed by a spot vs. disguise (disguise +10 if the will save failed and there is a mundane disguise involved) (for the look) and then a bluff vs. sense motive (for the act). In theory, the circumstance modifiers BB mentioned would apply here, and not to the saves. The only instances of a circumstance bonus being applied to a saving throw that I know of are destrachans vs. sonic attacks and cover for reflex saves vs. area of effect spells. (the former justified by the monster's freakish affinity with sound, the latter justified by the fact that full cover grants immunity, so half cover aught to be worth something... along with it being easier to imagine ducking behind a half wall to avoid a fireball than being at the center of the blast and hopping somehow to take half damage [or none, if you're a monk or rogue!])

Personally, I take a stance like psycho_leo, where this is a PW and consistency is important to maintain verisimilitude, but I try to avoid deviating at all, even to the benefit of PCs. Having an attitude of nerfing rules to make life easy on PCs reduces challenge, and makes the game feel too much like playing console games with cheat codes on. Having an attitude that it's alright to arrange things that're wildly different from the existing presentation of the world makes the suspension of disbelief on the part of the players more difficult, and thus makes the game less enjoyable.

[JaydeMoon]

I agree that maintaining a semblance of equal application and balance across servers and by various DMs is important. Don't know if scrying is part of your list of times when saves get modifiers or if its different sort of modifier we're not talking about here...

Anyhow, I don't know that the 3.5 rules prohibit you from making what may seem like common sense modifiers to things such as piercing illusions, they didn't really dedicate enough space to illusions to cover every single possibility with it, much like many things...

Ultimately it comes down to DM judgement. In that case it seems best to find some reasonable middle ground that satisfies.

Like DnD snickers.

Yum. I'm hungry.

[Zelknolf]

Anyhow, I don't know that the 3.5 rules prohibit you from making what may seem like common sense modifiers to things such as piercing illusions, they didn't really dedicate enough space to illusions to cover every single possibility with it, much like many things...

Absolutely never prohibited; The d20 system actively encourages "house rules" -- the trick, of course, is when it comes to horrid inconsistencies (i.e. Tom the Scout has +15 spot; he finds every illusion on one server, where they use spot checks to give circumstance modifiers to the save, but he's a rogue, so he finds none of them when he travels, where it's just will saves, and the spot +3 clr 1 makes a fool of him, 'cuz he/she took iron will at level 1.) Such situations will only damage immersion and breed discontent among our player base.

[JaydeMoon]

I agrees. We win.

[JaydeMoon]

I guess what I'm saying is not that your spot will give you a bonus to save vs the illusion but that the following might apply:

Upon study or interaction, spot roll made at DC 5 (yes I know that thing BB posted says asking for spot rolls is above and beyond what is needed, but this is just an example 'house rule', also, an unmodified spot roll with a 5 DC represents the ridiculously easy, so without special circumstances even the most inattentive individuals will get a chance to save 75% of the time).

Beat the DC, you get the will save.

DC is modified by things like: rainy weather. Is it dark. Concealment, etc. All the normal things that impede spot rolls.

On a moonless, rainy night you're talking to an illused individual standing behind a scrawny bush? Spot DC becomes 30 or some shat.

Certainly this makes sense... ~if~ you wanted to implement such a thing.