Your opinion on ALFA's current wealth levels

[idoru]

I realised that the thread I created in the NwN 2 forum was actually based on an assumption that may be inaccurate: that the overally wealth in ALFA 1 is currently seen as a problem that should be fixed.

So let's test that. Please vote for the option that best reflects your opinion. Try to base your vote on your own first-hand experiences rather than on whatever rumours you may have heard on forums/chat. We're only voting on wealth here, XP and leveling is a completely separate issue.

The poll runs for 7 days.

Feel free to go vote now, if you're so inclined. But here's some background:

Back in the early days, one of the most important pillars of ALFA was the idea that our community would be low-XP, low-level, low-loot, generally low-reward. Believe it or not, but this ranked as high as the one-character principle. The pre-ALFAquake admin spent considerable effort on bringing down wealth and XP gains. They implemented ever stricter loot-giving guidelines, diminishing returns was made standard in the ACR, many threads could be seen in the DM forums where admin would criticise the loot- and XP-habits of offending DMs.

ALFAquake changed a lot of things, and this was one of them. Soon after ALFAquake, Duck, the new DM admin, essentially tossed out the old, strict item and gold guidelines for a more liberal system. Since then, there have been some attempts and initiatives to bring back guidelines, perhaps not as strict as before but at least some kind of limitation... But not much has happened.

This leads me to wonder if ALFA has changed, fundamentally. ALFA is its members. If a majority of the members feel that things should be done a certain way, then that's how things should get done. Did the attitudes among ALFAns change in a more wealth-friendly direction?

That's what I'm trying to find out. If you have something smart to say about this issue, post away.

[Magonushi]

I sure hope this isn't going on record as an official pole as the options are IMO biased.

The closest thing to my opinion that "many PCs are below the wealth guidlines" is the option "wealth levels need to be raised." I'd like to point out that this last option implies raising the wealth guidelines per level as layed out in the APM. In no way do I want this to happen. The wealth guidelines are fine it's just that many PCs fall below the "minimum" for their level largely due to lack of DM attention, or rather DM attention with notice given to the relative wealth of the player.

[Mulu]

ALFA needs a welfare program for those PC's who fall through the cracks.

One of the prior primary criticisms of limiting wealth is that it tends to violate canon. Of course, I'm probably one of the least canon interested players here. The other problem with wealth restrictions is that simply finding a PC corpse can be a huge windfall for a low level PC that easily pushes them over guidelines in wealth and equipment (or so I've heard), so it isn't just DM or farmed loot that is at issue; I suspect PC corpses constitute the best loot drops in ALFA.

[idoru]

Magonushi: I share your concern about low-levels. My own level 3 char has something like 5 gold to his name currently. Clearly we have very large "class differences" in ALFA, where some players are quite poor, and some players are extremely wealthy.

All I ask for, though, is your personal impression of the wealth. Not how you like the item guidelines, not your opinion on any possible admin decisions that may arise from this poll. Just trying to get a general feel for what the community thinks about wealth. In your case, it sounds like you should vote for option 3, based on your own personal experiences.

It should be noted that the wealth guidelines are just that - guidelines. They are not binding in any way, little effort has been made to create binding rules for DMs or others based on them, and indeed there is little evidence to suggest that the average wealth in ALFA matches the guidelines at all.

[Swift]

It should be noted that the wealth guidelines are just that - guidelines. They are not binding in any way, little effort has been made to create binding rules for DMs or others based on them, and indeed there is little evidence to suggest that the average wealth in ALFA matches the guidelines at all.

True, but they werent created to be ignored by DMs with the excuse of "They are just guidelines, i dont have to follow them"

They probably would be binding, but too many people are against "more rules on what we can do", arguing that there are too many rules in ALFA already, and thus are left as guidelines. People dont seem to like to be told what they can and cant do sometimes.

We cant even force DMs to post when a signifigantly valued item makes its way into the game, because some feel like we are policing or 'restricting' them.

Apart from one or two wealth leaks that have since been fixed, i dont think wealth levels are too bad, though could possibly come down a tad in places. What is lacking most is a general consensus of just what level it is we really want, and agreement by all DMs to help try and keep ALFA to that.

Personal Opinion, on what ive seen first hand

Nothing wrong with wealth levels, but then again, i have left NC/AC maybe 6 times in 18 months, so im not a very good guage.

Edit: If this kind of post is considered off topic by the parameters you set Idoru, feel free to split it into a seperate thread, but we both know this will spark debate about wealth in general and what different people think ALFA should be etc etc

[paazin]

Magonushi here seems right; most things seem good, as the vast majority of PCs I've seen have little, if any, real wealth. Sometimes it comes up as a problem (when PCs don't have enough money to rent an inn-room for the night, buy a meal, or a roll of bandages). Would be handy if little "odd jobs" (or just some way of getting money for minor expenses ) were more frequent so your poor PC doesn't have to choose between dying of starvation and stealing from a shopkeeper.

[fade]

Wealth isnt an overall problem except for a few PCs that seem to have around double what everyone else is, but as long as they got it legit having a few rich people around doesn't bother me a bit.

[Cynon]

I don't think the wealth guidlines have much to do with wealth really other than to be there to guide DM's as to whether on not they should be dishing out a nice valuable reward to a specific player or being a little bit stingey with them. This is for if a PC's overall wealth might be too high relative to their level and unbalence the characters power.


I'm thinking the question relates to whether you think that there is enough wealth flowing through the player base to make the gaming experience fun rather than a less than enjoyable struggle.

If the player base is not having fun as they log on only to get PWNed cos thay couldn't afford several cure serious wound potions, worth 1500 each, then we'll loose RPers who can't develope a character cos they are struggling too much and be left with only PGers who can afford what the rest of us should be able to afford.

Trying to change the guide lines into wealth limits is only a control attempt to stop the occurance of high wealth players out of a fear of powergaming and uberness without having earned it. It's actually having the opposite effect IMO and although the issue is a valid one lowering wealth is not the way to handle it.

Wealth guidelines are simply that and they serve their purpose as long as DM's are paying attention to them. (nothing to do with anyones personal first hand impression of wealth levels)

If the average player has below a wealth level that makes it possible to play in a relaxed and enjoyable way then the wealth levels shouls be raised. If the average player (not a select powergaming few) has tonnes of wealth and is ubered up to the hilt then yes wealth levels should be lowered.

Personally i think we should have DM's paying attention to the wealth guidlines and simply giving decent loot to those who are low, not average, low wealth, average loot to average players and simply not hardly any loot at all to anyone who is considerably high wealth with regards to the guidelines.

Trying to forcefully adjust a populations wealth (whether up or down) is gonna cause problems, it's also gonna piss off decent fair gamers and encourage powergaming.

If the wealth of the community goes up you will have players of PC's who have been around a long time (level 12-13 etc.) moaning that they didn't have a +2 weapon at level 4 or whatever, which gets on the nerves of everyone else and creates tension.

If the wealth of the community goes down. you have low level PC's dying all over cos they can't afford healing and decent gear whilst high level PC's and PGers become even more and more uber. The players of lower levels get fed up and leave the community and flame the boards. The higher levels become annoyed that PGers who started their PC's 2 months ago are now more uber than them even though they are half the level and how did they even get half the level in that short a time OMG!

Wealth: Let admin set guidelines and let DM's, DM with those guidelines in mind.

What ifs and buts are another issue. Powergaming has it's own threads and procedures to handle it.

[Overfilled Cup]

I personally am not aware of the wealth of any other players in ALFA. I play my pcs wealth level and keep it within the guidlines. If Im out of the guidelines Im more than happy to sit down with a DM. The thing is youll never be able to afford land or such without first going out of the guidlines..Thats a problem with the current system..You have to earn it before you can spend it..So communicating with the DMs is again very important.

Since we are a smallish community in terms of player size players should be able to keep in contact with there HDM or primary DM in regards to how there pc is develloping. Hopefully we can do more to promote that aspect as that way the HDM will better know what a player needs. I think the expectation that a DM knows what a player needs in a two-three hour session isnt real accurate. The players need to keep in touch so they have an idea where to drive the players. If its gold they need it would be a much different quest then if you are needing to find the Holy Relic for the church which might be a gold sink type of quest..

[Cynon]

I'm looking at the reletively evenly rising poll results.

I'm thinking that a 3rd of ALFA is happy and thinks best to leave things alone.

a 3rd is voting to have wealth lowered as they are low wealth and see other with high wealth and get jealous.

a 3rd is high wealth and obviously being happy they say raise wealth so the low wealth players increase their wealth and stop wanting wealth lowered which would in effect nerf them.

Nobody wants to have their own wealth lowered but nobody minds seeing 'others' haveing their wealth lowered. Human beings a selfish and cold breed.

The poll results so far says to me that wealth is a serious issue but not at all what should be done about it, other than more awareness and as OC says, some communication between players and DM's to make things run smoothly.

If your PC is poor and you see others IG being rich RP that you don't like the rich and create a class divide. The DM's will soon notice your RP as a poor hard done by peasent and perhaps feel sorry for you. If you are a good RPer you might get some wealth along the way.

I am an idealist perhaps but I honestly believe all things can be sorted out IG. Trying to effect wealth and rules via the forums is just meta gaming IMO. DM's run the show, flatter them and rp well and you might begin to get somewhere fairly and the community in general would be a better place for it.

[Lusipher]

My take on wealth..

Some people have waaaaay too much loot. I know, as a DM, what I see and what i hear about some players. Some have loot like 5x or more the wealth than they should per their levels. Some have volunteered to give some of that up and thats to be commended. Some players that are like this wont give it up at all and are fighting it tooth and nail. Whats going to happen to those players will probably be something IC happen to their wealth.

This is a touchy subject cause people dont like others telling them what to do or what they can have. Its partially the DM sides fault because the damn guidelines have taken forever to get hashed out. They have dropped the ball on getting them signed off and implemented. Once they are implemented players should really not be defensive about being looked at and asked to give up some wealth or items. Its not about messing with their fun, its about getting the project under control.

This whole subject drives me insane because we have millions of discussions on it and before we had DMs who wouldnt do their jobs and deal with the problem. They would even make it worse. Now, I think those elements are gone and I think most of our Dm core are more responsible and know the DMA will jump their asses if they deviate from the guidelines.

Its just something the players are going to have to deal with. It can be done voluntarily or done IC. Loot and item levels need to be fixed and one way or another its going to get done.

[AcadiusLost]

It's a bit ludicrous to discuss the "wealth level" of ALFA as one net variable. We have some PCs that have lived through the loosening of wealth and loot controls that supposedly happened at some time in the past, obviously as they get most of their swag before the reigns were tightened up, they are going to have a lot more than PCs who have made their levels in a sanitized, near-zero gain environment.

Even from server to server, things will very widely, even discounting DM to DM variations in preferances for monetary/tangible rewards. I would say it is hard for PCs made in the last year or so to get by, paying for caravan rides or inn rooms, at least on some servers. I would also say the controls in place that make life hard for those PCs were likely designed with the wealthiest PCs in mind, and have had little affect on them.

Do I think there are PCs with dispropotionately large piles of gold and unbalancing equipment? Certainly- and this is one factor that makes such players difficult to DM for in my experience, as one is hesitant to head reward on reward, and they are often able to breeze through encounters that were meant to be significant/meaningful. Do I think making day-to-day life and necessities in game more expensive will help? I don't see how it would, just disproportionately hurts those players who wonder what all the fuss is about.

I think the only answer to this is for HDMs and DM teams to keep their own houses in order. The logs should be monitored for net gains, both XP and net worth, so that each team is aware of how much is being gained at what place. I do feel a lot of high wealth has come from spawn farming - dimrets does a good job at keeping the XP gains in check, but this is (or was) a primary source of income for many wealthy PCs. Sometimes it's even condoned by such things as bounties on the "target creatures". But if a group is being hit often, the onus should be on the server team to pull it out of the mod so it's not respawning every night. Players should know better too, but there is some gray area involved.

So I think we should just finalize and make use of the guidelines already hammered out. There is no reasonable way in my view to globally "raise the wealth" in a way that would actually accomplish the goal. Likewise, further "cracking down on global wealth" just tends to be divisive and hurts a lot of PCs who were poor to start out with. DMs need to be aware of the standards, and aware of the wealth levels of the PCs on their servers, and take them into consideration with regards to awards for quests and such.

I'd also like to say that the logs of the 2.x weapon test server are likely a skewed sampling of ALFA's population. By and large, the only PCs who had problems with the 3.0 conversion were ones with custom-model weapons. So, what you basically saw were all the wealthiest / most custom gear / most treasure-laden PCs, logging into the server to get their swag adjusted.

so, I voted "just fine", as I think 75% or more of the PC population is under-wealth in a way that still allows for some enjoyable play. With regards to the outliers, it is a matter that DMs should handle on a case by case basis. The standards are there as a point of reference and guidance in this.

[Ronan]

+1 to what Acadius said...

[Zekal]

I wish the DMs of my country would start giving me money so that everyone in the country has the same amount.

[paazin]

I wish the DMs of my country would start giving me money so that everyone in the country has the same amount.

Sounds like a great solution to me. Execute the wealthy and redistribute the wealth amongst those in the Party and the proletariat.