Exodus Integration : A Poll

[Veilan]

Bulls, like you [...]Bears, like me

Actually, as my forum title proves I'm the salmon-pawing godless marauding killing machine here, so that's where your argument falls apart! Zing!

On a more serious note, if I understood why people try to powergame in ALFA isntead of elsewhere, I'd have my psychology credit writs gilded. Some motivation I can imagine is because in ALFA it matters, you can feel "smarter", you got attached to a character and get ambitious, there's a certain thrill, etcetera. Sadly my argument isn't purely hypothetical, but I'm a little tired of giving depressing anecdotes.

If we could somehow transform ALFA into that "small" community feel, where everyone knows, and feels attached to, everybody, that would be perfect... but it's a herculean task, against interests long-entrenched. ALFA, usually, has some sort of detente, which from time to time resettles as Admin positions shift or topics are brought up. I think you can feel the underlying friction we have... some consider it politicking, others, like me, a proof that there's passion and life in the project.

So... maybe we can focus a little back on the topic, because Exodites certainly don't deserver "their" thread hijacked for trying to shake the 1 PC pillar.

My own opinion still is that we should try to be as accomodating as possible to people with 1 PC in each world, and give them enough time and opportunity to consider what they want. However, the creation of new characters if you already have at least 1 active one in your vault should be stopped as soon as possible. That way we will eventually drift toward one PC.

Your point of concentration also is what worried me, but that's not to help. People go to where the action is, and we probably would fare better if we had less servers. That's however not technically possible at this point. As I like to say, every area apart from 1 inn, 1 shop and 1 cave needs justification to go into a module . But, this again isn't on topic...

[I-KP]

I think, to make an informed decision here, it would be good to know how many active players Exodus has to offer. If we're talking, say, a handful of people from Exodus vs hundreds in ALFA, one would logically presume to know where compromise, if any, should lay.

Then, with the greatest of respect, I would be forced to question your understanding of the term 'compromise'. A little bit of give and take from both sides not only surmounts obstacles but also indentures a mature approach to making this potential merge every bit as beneficial to the wider community as can be possible.

[oldgrayrogue]

After reading over the debate in this thread I went back and voted don't bridge and merge no further. While I was not around for the "exodus" from ALFA, it seems that philosophical differences still divide the membership of the two communities. What unites us, however, is the desire for quality RP. ALFA really does not have the player base to populate too many more servers anyway. In my opinion leaving the PW's separate, but sharing the player base as we do now, gets more players (and maybe even DMs) onto both PWs for some quality RP and provides an outlet for those who would like to play different concepts in a different setting. Its the best of both worlds, so to speak.

[I-KP]

While I was not around for the "exodus" from ALFA, it seems that philosophical differences still divide the membership of the two communities.

Dredging up echoes of the distant past (that I wasn't around for either as it happens) is not helpful particularly when one factors in that the personalities involved aren't on the scene anymore. Projects evolve, mandates change, membership churns and ever it was thus (even in ALFA). In addition, and somewhat paradoxically, the majority of the wrangling in this thread is taking place between ALFAns, so if there are differences they were present here all along; don’t blame Exodus for issues that were likely to surface regardless of whether or not the Amnian caravans rolled in to your tradepost.

I’d be interested in reading what you think these philosophical differences are, precisely. Perhaps they can be addressed or recognised, brought out into the open, rather than remain obfuscated by fear, uncertainty and doubt.

[Tridisus]

hey all,

just to chip in a bit, those currently that actually run and dm exodus and even play, were not part of the original disagreement that ended up with exodus being created. Actually i dont think those in alfa that said no to the server proposal in the first place are even around anymore.

needless to say the nwn2 community is way past the stage of how to correctly put a nwn2 server up which is why exodus was created.

differences i would say are:
haks, alfa is more magic orientated (due to locations picked)

similarities are:
everyone just wants decent rp

the future isnt that rosey for nwn2 it was released nearly 4 years ago its been a complete pain to hammer out what has been made. Player numbers are dwindling and i think to agree with Vormerion at the end of those nwn1 log days the future is based on campaign sessions with steady players that way you can keep the numbers coming back.

[oldgrayrogue]

I-KP:

The differences I see as highlighted in this thread are broadly, whether to play within a system that offers the maximum RP opportunities, trusts community members and polices wrongdoers, or a system based upon a set of rules that ostensibly prevents (or at least minimizes the opportunity) for abuses by everyone, but restricts options for roleplay.

You are correct that there is a division among ALFA members, myself included, on which system is better. I do not mean to lay blame on Exodus at all, but this thread has highlighted those philosophical differences in my opinion. Maybe I am wrong, but some of the Exodus posters seem to be on the "liberalization" side of the fence.

Ever since joining ALFA I have questioned the 1 PC and level 1 start pillars. Aside from metagaming/powergaming concerns for multiple PCs (which are real but can be addressed on a case by case basis IMO) I don't see any reason for limiting players to one PC. Watch any skillful DM for proof that playing multiple characters does not dilute the quality of your RP. Those who play on one server and DM on another are further proof that the honor system works. As to the level 1 start, there was a recent discussion about the leveling rate from 1 to 3 which is generally very rapid in ALFA if I recall the discussion. To a large extent there already is a defacto level 2 or 3 start given that initial rapid advancement rate. After level 3 it slows considerably. The downside to this reality is that static content is often being utilized to fuel that initial advancement to level 3 rather than to foster RP as intended. A level 3 or even level 2 start obviates this and IMO allows for a more well rounded character concept from the outset, as well as greater survivability for that concept at character creation. This permits new players to enjoy more of the server content immediately, which given the quality of our content will get players hooked quickly. A level 1 start limits your RP options at the outset, and if the new concept dies quickly usually leads to frustration and player dissatisfaction. For those who say this "softens" the "hardcore" aspect of our RP, that is only the case if survivability continues to increase exponentially as you increase in level. We are a permadeath world after all -- the essence of hardcore roleplay which should never change. Higher level PCs should ideally face challenges with a corresponding risk of death that is comparable to the risk at lower levels. That does not presently exist in ALFA (absent a DM with some chutzpa). Some could argue that we are only "hardcore" from level 1 to 5 and "soft" for higher levels.

Anyway, I digress greatly, but those are the issues as discussed in this thread as I see them, with my own point of view thrown in for good measure. As for any of the pillars changing, I have been a member here for over two years now (and others have been here much, much longer) and call me a pessimist or maybe a realist but based on my experience here I just don't see it happening. Bottom line, you can't make everyone happy. While I'd love to see some changes in our system, ALFA delivers for a high quality RP experience, and does so in spades.

[I-KP]

OGR,

Thanks for taking the time to respond, and I agree with much of what you say. Where I am still confused is where you see all of this being threatened by including Amn which, from experience, operates under the very same tenets ergo already in fundamental philosophical accord (it did, after all, spawn from the same heritage as ALFA so perhaps this isn’t surprising – good genes will find a way to propagate). If the Amn Question has sparked a bit of navel-gazing within ALFA you can’t really lay the blame at Amn’s doorstep for that: shoot the archer not his arrows, as the adage goes.

I think Trid is correct, the NWN2 play base is in serious decline (unless you want to cybor). Exodus and ALFA are not a breed apart, they are made of the same stuff, stuff that’s rather tough to find these days. It makes good survival sense to team up. And yes, Exodus is in greater peril than ALFA, there is absolutely no denying that, but ALFA isn’t exactly the sprawling metropolis that it once was either.

While I'd love to see some changes in our system, ALFA delivers for a high quality RP experience, and does so in spades.

Yes, and so does Exodus; which immediately leads me to conclude that decent RP isn't about the rules and rigours, it's about the people who want to put the effort in.

[Mord]

We should have the Exodus players commit to a battle royale, last man standing wins the right to play 2 characters.

FIGHT!

[Lucifer]

+1 to your last post OGR..I concur..I believe the reason these areas are being dicussed and debated now..is because..since I joined Alfa 11 months ago ..the basic attitude is.."if you want to start above level 1 or would like more than one char..you must be a power gamer. I don't get that..I have player concepts that require a Multiclass... just for RP sake. Having to get to level two..just to "begin" the true path your character will follow..well slows his Progression a lot.

My biggest reason for wishing too have more than one char is to play with all the people I have come to know like and enjoy RPing with. Sometimes I can not because RP forces us too differnt servers...sometimes because a timezone difference keeps my char in one area ICly and during the time they are awake their Char is somewhere mine could not travel to and back...do ing this occasionally..either example will happen..but going through a couple months IRL..not playing with friends..defeats my biggest purpose for playing..RPing with people and Characters I enjoy.

Enough said I guess..I would choose two if we merge and have also posted a vote not to merge..I did that as soon as i saw the poll and haven't changed my opinion..I like both communities..and love that i get more time to RP with good people as it stands now.

[Keryn]

The starting at level 1 slow the progression is not a reality in ALFA. With the inclusion of statics most players in TSM have reached level 4/5 in around one month. That is hardly slow progression. We have reached the best of both worlds, we kept faithful to the lvl 1 as start and yet gave the opportunity to reach lvl 3/4 fairly easily BUT through mechanisms that are there to enhance RP to make you team up in essence to help you establish your PC, that cannot be seen as something bad... And i think it is the way to follow.

[johnlewismcleod]

With all do respect to my esteemed friends and colleagues (and I mean that), as occasionally annoying and seemingly oppressive as our rule system is, there is a very good reason for it: it saves time and minimizes disputes.

DM's and Admin's aren't fond of policing players and mediating disputes. It's not fun, and no one says thank you for this type of service. We can all find some reason to criticize various aspects of our rules system...myself included...but I offer a reality:

DnD and NWN are populated by very intelligent and creative people that are generally quite adept at crunching numbers and discerning how to best take advantage of the gameworld...be it texts as in PnP, or the endless classes, feats, and tactics that is NWN. We need our rules to simplify what is allowed and acceptable so that our DM's and staff don't have to argue endlessly with players (and each other ) over why this or that isn't going to fly.

You can characterize this as being mistrusting of players if you want, but really it's just simple necessity to preserve the sanity of our staff. All one has to do is look back at this thread and see the brilliant arguments deployed to imagine what the staff would be up against if we didn't have a concrete structure to point to and say..."It's not that I don't believe or mistrust you...it's the rule. Post in brainstorming and we can see if there is support to take a vote if you want to change the rule. See you ingame".

I voted option #2, BTW...as it seemed the most flexible to facilitate integration at first glance...which is something I'd very much like to see.

The Exodus mob is a very impressive bunch and both our PW's would be enriched with a union IMO.

[danielmn]

JLM swung the mighty hammer of truth. Low overhead. If everyone playing pitched in even a small amount this way or that, perhaps the staff would be able to focus on upping the ante and allowing multiple pc's, policing that to make sure no violations occur. As is, the staff itself is stretched thin, so all that want multiple pc's to be an option get to play twice as much while the few dedicated to keeping the project going have one more thing to doublecheck. My main concern is not TRUST of the playerbase, my main concern is WORKLOAD of the few who are donating their time to the project weather admin, dm, builder, scripter ect (often we can see the case of one person handling many of the jobs above for lack of staff). As a dm and previous hdm, I've heard I WANT or WE WANT many many many many many many times, and what I've found is by trying to accomodate the wants of the players, even more and more and more wants get added till you are overwhelmed and eventually just walk away because you realize how much time you're spending trying to appease people that could just as easily tool their own items, make their own area's, set off on their own personal quests, ect. Kind of a digression there, I know, but I think if players had even the smallest inkling of the kinds of hours our volunteers put into the project, they would be a little more generous with their requests as to what they want or need. If we're going with the multiple pc option for good, the previous question of Sander bares repeating, why even merge at all? We are able to have two characters RIGHT NOW with no problems whatsoever.

[Veilan]

Thanks, JLM, for seeing our rules as what they are intended: A liberation of DMs, staff, and in my mind, yes, even players. DMs don't want to police, and hence our rules aim to control behaviour "supply side", not "after the fact". After the fact doesn't work for a large variety of reasons in ALFA, size and anonymity being the foremost. I don't have to roll out all the examples of where we tried to police the bad apples, but let me shout out Khondar for the most egregious example.

We have strong rules, and we have strong player protections, both from other rules as well as community instinct. This isn't bad per se, but it's a lot more complicated than the self-correction that happens in a decent 1 DM 4 player group. That complication is party required by the format though: In ALFA, people can and will jump between playgroups, and we need to maintain comparability as well as fairness between all those groups, even though the attitudes of those groups (and their DMs) sometimes vary.

I'd think it positive if we could empower DMs a little more, but that's something everyone best does for themselves in game, by maybe showing them some respect and understanding. Been a while since I last DMed in ALFA, but even as player I prefer it when capable DMs are in charge of the game world. That, of course, makes training DMs and strong oversight a must, as well... again, something that would happen automatically in a 1 DM, 4 player setting. We're sadly not that, and thus have to put up with "bureaucracy" and rules. Trust is good, control is better... and in my mind, one doesn't have to exclude the other. In fact, I find screams of "Omg why are you not trusting me!" when someone gets checked pretty ironic... after all, maybe that person could try trusting the controller and their community, too .

Cheers,

[peterdin]

... after all, maybe that person could try trusting the controller and their community, too .

Exactly to the point.
It's not all black and white, truth will be (as always) somewhere in the middle.
So while reading this all and wanting to keep it as short as possible: my conclusion:

Hurree for the rules (this will give us guideline on what we consider good play) and applause for the trust, that will offload us all from police tasks.

-end-

[I-KP]

If this was a discussion based solely on the desire to get Amn bridged we'd be sailing, but it appears to have been hijacked by ALFAn navel-gazing and sparked off what seem to be old disputes of which none are directly related to the in principal discussion of bridging Amn. I’m not begrudging anyone the right to discuss such matters, it’s actually a pretty healthy thing to do and is a sign of a passionate and involved player base, but this derailing is influencing a poll that should have been limited to an ‘in principle’ matter and not a pseudo-ballot on whether or not the current player base is content with ALFA as a whole.

The sad reality to all of this is that Exodus is the same as ALFA (save for a few easily surmounted, cosmetic differences) and a neater fit you will not find out there. Exodus is considering conceding an awful lot to make this happen. I would not dare put words in anyone’s mouth but I suspect all that they ask in return is that ALFA bends a little too -- not to snap or burn your bras, just to give a little bit back -- if only for a transitional period for the sake of the players that have supported them over the years. As one such player, I find that just a little bit awesome.

Furthermore, it would be interesting [but I’m not expecting] to see how the votes stack up against the people who still contribute to either game (be that playing, DMing or admin). It would be a shame if this opportunity was allowed to be derailed by FUD, snobbery and general subject creep.

My final word on the matter will take the form of a quote then I'm out of this bearpit for good:-

The Exodus mob is a very impressive bunch and both our PW's would be enriched with a union IMO.

I had best go and see what JLM is tormenting the wee Hin with now.

Peace and chocolate,

I-KP