That's interesting indeed, and, why not submit it to Cipher
On the other hand, we have to keep in mind that most merchants would determine a planetouched as "human", and in fact they are pretty much that.
Basically, the dm/builder would have to determine the reaction to each race, right? That would leave him the ability to determine what realistic reaction the npc should have.
After thought, it's certainly worth more exploration (if it has not been done before, etc.)
Last edited by Souvarine on Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Does the game script read them as human? If so that can be worked around by a simple check to see if they have the feats given by the races. Simple fix, Im still devising a strategy to handle proper ways of disguising oneself, and how to implement it.
Amar: In alfa1, there was a check done in some areas for your pc to have a helmet. As a drow we would be KOS by city guards if not wearing a helmet in waterdeep, for example.
I assume such script will eventually be written for drow on nwn2 servers, it would then be easy to adapt it for tieflings, who will require it much less often.
If you are offering to write this script, i'd advise you to start with drows, i assume it'll be much more useful for the builders (and perhaps one is working on it as we speak). Talk to Cipher, script-able man
Helmets are IMO a poor way of going about it. I believe the disguise skill is around for a reason and the helmet idea just bypasses it an leaves openings for abuse. I'd love to figure out a better way of working it. I think it was a quick-fix to an issue, and I want to see a more permanent and realistic solution if it can be done.
My personal opinion on "disguises" is that this is best left to dm/player interaction for the rare cases where a planetouched character will require a disguise in order to get around.
Thank you for stepping up, Team Tiefling. I'll respond briefly to the three proposals presented in this thread, ATD's, Amar's and Souvarine's.
ATD addresses a philosophy of status quo more than tech/policy implementation, although the word "combinatorics" caught my attention, and I'm going to use it in a sentence as often as possible today. I don't feel that the dismissal of NPC scripts--whether global or locally negative or positive-- is valid, however, as even if scripts exist on a server for other races, the adaptation of many scripts is a non-trivial time commitment. What I'm building is a very small part of a module and even I have racially specific scripts and dialogs on Silvy Uni that will have to be adapted one by one, and several University classes would have to change to take into account spells that do or don't work on outsiders. With four months of work thus far and knowing the workload that remains in front of me just getting Silvy Uni up and running in a basic form, the thought of adding another layer of dialogs and script conditionals is unpalatable at this time. That is likely part of the barrier Team Tiefling faces across the board: workload by server, adapting things that only the server team know about. I know that it is personally unacceptable to me that such work not be done if Outsiders are added, since they would then not receive the same treatment as other races on my part of the module. Also, I know that there is a perception that such work should be done from the beginning, but it hasn't been and the existing server worked well enough in NWN, dinnit, and who knows if adding something may break what works already? Pair that thought process with a lack of considerations of such recognitions by Team Tiefling and it makes for a disgruntled builder, and a disgruntled builder is not your friend.
Amar's proposal goes to the opposite pole of offering extreme detail on implementation, and as such I see a few interesting points in it. Collecting information is a very good point to begin with. A process of education can only benefit both sides. Team Tiefling can benefit by learning about what processes must go into building/scripting things and how much work each server AND the global tech team have assessed as necessary to Outsiders. On the other hand, those wary of PT due to unfamiliarity can learn more, too. Do not, however, let education turn into badgering, or assume a busy builder/tech person will want to participate. If someone does offer their opinion, do not minimize it or insult it. I don't think a list of 100 ways to incorporate PT into campaigns is required. A wiki is a good idea; finding volunteers to do the tech work is a better one. I think an application to play PT in ALFA is an interesting possibility but ultimately such a thing would need to be handled by PA and I'm unaware if the next PA would be interested in adding such duties to his/her team. I like the merchant script idea and such hard, practical, implemented-and-tested-with-ACR scripts might well weigh with those DMs who voted against PT.
Souvarine's proposal also addresses education, and again I believe that the crux of the issue. Anybody may post in ALFA and attempts to gather information are not outlawed. I suspect many DMs would respond to such posts, but some might not. Take what is offered and do not bombard non-responders with PMs or forum harassment.
A few notes:
1) Work together. Three proposals is too many and you can combine your skills and knowledge to benefit both ALFA and yourselves;
2) Decide whether heads/models are important or aren't. Are NPCs supposed to react to the man with fire coming out of head? You can't PM an NPC to say that your PC doesn't really have a bonfire on his head.
3) Clarify which PT we're talking about and address each separately. As facetiously as I have taken up the term "Team Tiefling", this is not Team Tiefling. This is Team Planetouched. Ignoring the shortcomings of genasi (for instance) and presuming that Aasimar (for instance) present no problem is not helpful.
4) There will be no reopening of any case in Admin unless evidence of need for such a thing is presented such a change in situation of a completely tested proof of concept. Trust me when I say I would not undermine the Admin process by frivolously reopening past decisions.
5) Should this specific case ever be reopened in Admin for a discussion, you may be certain that I would both be listening to the DM/builder/techies as to whether they feel anything has changed in the situation. If no change is perceived by those builders/DMs/techies the case will likely not come up for an Admin vote and would certainly be defeated again if it did.
Finally, the incomplete list of issues I raised and all three responded to are not meant to be a full list; they are merely seed issues that were intended to get thought processes rolling on both sides of this divide. Please note that I have not addressed negative DM perception of DMing PT. I believe that is a significant barrier that may not be surmountable, and certainly won't be by shouting at them, insulting them and dismissing their perceptions. The only way to shift perceptions is to remove stigma. One removes stigma by respectful treatment as one wishes to be treated. In the process of doing the work that is seen as a barrier, it is to be hoped that such respect of the people behind the entrenched positions ensues.
I very much appreciate the response, Wynna. I agree with you on many points, though I do feel that if we all have three complete proposals we can read each others and rewrite one to include the other two. I already planned on going to both of them and trying to incorporate their thoughts and Ideas into my proposal.
I believe education is important on this issue, as I believe a lot of the hard feelings against the planetouched is an issue with not understanding their purpose in the realms.
The 100 ways to incorporate one into a campaign was actually inspired by the DMG itself. I cannot remember what page it is on, but there is a page with 100 different quick & easy plot hooks for any campaign. It's a very valuable list and I've used it in the past quite frequently. They are nice to have if you that sort of "DM Writer's Block."
Ill be out of town over the next few days on a trip to Nashville, so I look forward to catching up on people thoughts when I return and getting to work on Chapter 3: Continued Support.
Wynna wrote:2) Decide whether heads/models are important or aren't. Are NPCs supposed to react to the man with fire coming out of head? You can't PM an NPC to say that your PC doesn't really have a bonfire on his head.
I wanna chime in here. I played some dude barbarian who had teh flamey eyes on NWN1. Due to technical limitations I couldn't exactly show it through game engine itself. I always thought that maybe people (Non possessed NPCs) just want to be left well enough alone by the loinclothed flamey-eyed freak of nature (The nature of the realms being strange enough as is.) Unwarrenting a response or dialog. Now the possessed NPCs brought hilarity and often more danger (try hiding behind a tree at night with a lantarn and see how well you do! ) to the otherwise normal plot.
Head packs were always optional in ALFA. I see this less about technical limitations and more about roleplaying ability. Let the player decide how to go about it and it will be up to the DM to eventually follow suite or not. I believe NWN2 firegenasi (however ya spells em) have actual hair with a fire VFX on it. If the builder wants to write extra dialog to spice up something with one or two NPC merchants that's his prerogative.
My opinion on this is head models are not at all important. Team Tiefling will have a lot to discuss in order to compact three different proposals into one. May require trimming, may require compromise, and a tax fraud attorny. We'll see. GO TEAM!
“In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.” - Open Message to the Executive Branch.
Yes, i propose amar to be the one to regroup the information from the proposals, i believe he started already on it. Then the rest of the planetouched crew could discuss about it over a chat or something. It would be important to collect the names of those interested in being part of the crew, as well. Zelknoff also had a proposal, i think?
Anyways, i've sent a pm to Hialmar to get instructions on how to conduct a poll on these forums. While not supported by the admin, this could be submitted to them as new information.
If i can get my eyes on an up to date list of dms and builders, i'll do the "survey" part of dms and builders through pms in order to get the imput.
found the reference i was looking for (unfortunately there have been a combined 9 thread pages between 2 different threads since i first started looking fo rthis info LOL):
Cold Lands is a no-no for tieflings, the region has just been through too much war caused by demons to trust ANYthing remotely connected
"Hostile to tieflings, fire genasi" (RoF p91)
Garrigan DeLorre - Paladin 6 - died honorably in battle
X'Anne - Witch (Druid/Ranger mix) 4 - captured and imprisoned awaiting trial (retired)
Talon Xavaliir - Cleric 11 - living
"I didn't know he only had six kids, I thought he had millions." (on the passing of Gary Gygax)
They might be able to operate on the fringes, coming out of Moonsea for whatever reason, but would not likely to be all that comfortable in the areas that are currently being built.
I think we had planned to expand into the mountains and a bit underground where certain factions may be willing to make use of a tiefling/gensai or 2.
coach wrote:found the reference i was looking for (unfortunately there have been a combined 9 thread pages between 2 different threads since i first started looking fo rthis info LOL):
Cold Lands is a no-no for tieflings, the region has just been through too much war caused by demons to trust ANYthing remotely connected
"Hostile to tieflings, fire genasi" (RoF p91)
I guess they'll get fucked up if they go there.
“In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.” - Open Message to the Executive Branch.
Update: Still a work in progress. On my third revision, working on including the thoughts and ideas presented in the other proposals. And the large final conclusive section of the proposal. Have patience
) to the otherwise normal plot.
