Poll Crafting

[Fionn]

NPC crafting with raw materials certainly seems like a good idea, but I think the framework behind that is so similar to allowing PC crafter that offering both makes the most sense. The crafting options in both instances can be based off of the relavent craft skill.

I like the NPC crafter option, but I'm concerned that implementation may turn it into vending machines. We would need to provide appropriate challenge in the collection of resources, scarcity of resources, and time to craft.

Assuming all that, I'm with Nerine. If somebody also wishes to provide PC crafting (with IG skill ranks, not a parallel 'crafting ranks' system), then I see no reason not to use it as well.

Both systems (people seem to like the rare resource model) will require we identify what uncommon and rare resources each server is responsible for. We can put Mithril on every server, but we'll need a way to make sure it's jealously guarded by Dire Dwarfs, *and* in limited supply per unit time.

[Knighted]

I think Nerine got it in one. Including the stuff about static quests etc.

[Rick7475]

NPC crafting with raw materials certainly seems like a good idea, but I think the framework behind that is so similar to allowing PC crafter that offering both makes the most sense. The crafting options in both instances can be based off of the relavent craft skill.

I like the NPC crafter option, but I'm concerned that implementation may turn it into vending machines. We would need to provide appropriate challenge in the collection of resources, scarcity of resources, and time to craft.

Assuming all that, I'm with Nerine. If somebody also wishes to provide PC crafting (with IG skill ranks, not a parallel 'crafting ranks' system), then I see no reason not to use it as well.

Both systems (people seem to like the rare resource model) will require we identify what uncommon and rare resources each server is responsible for. We can put Mithril on every server, but we'll need a way to make sure it's jealously guarded by Dire Dwarfs, *and* in limited supply per unit time.

Well, this is how I would see it. Use the PC's skill points (perhaps the Craft Armor, Craft Weapon, Craft Trap, or even Lore) as a way to determine skill in crafting. You add skill points and go up in ranks. Hopefully NWN2 will give us more skill point options, such as just as alchemy or bowyer crafts. Int can determine how many trades you can have just like languages.


And yes, certain materials would be rare, so that PC's would search the world for them, and find out from the local legend and NPC's where they are.

I would also implement a crafting guild college, where master craftsmanship titles would only be conferred to a certain number of PC's at a time so that the industry does not become devalued. These guild colleges would exist on certain servers (ie big city servers for the higher magic or certain centers known for certain crafing skills, such as a dwarven complex or an elven city).

I envision master craftsmen, btw, to be over level 10, and follow a strict adherence to guild law on how they create and sell the items (ie, no selling items to low levels) or they would lose their title and priviledges (ie unable to craft at that level any more). Mastercraftsman is an important status title, like a Lord or noble, and can be earned. Earned, of course, by spending time creating mundane but hopefully imaginative and creative items.

Also, a sword, for example, can have many magical properties that just +1. How boring. You can have +1 vs goblins, +1 vs orc, +1 vs this and that. I say we stay away from the boring old generic +1 enhancement and move into a realm of variety. Craftmen, weaponsmiths, etc, can make a variety of different magic swords, and never have to go passed +1 enhancement. If you have racial and alignment specific swords (ie vs evil) then that opens up a whole array of different crafted items with various designs.

Lots can be done here. Imagine the possibilities with alchemy, what sort of potions can be developed, or working with herbaology.

The RP'ing aspects are astronomical. A skilled craftsman can have many PC's working under him and develop PC oriented economics where the DM's encourage the PC', and the DM's don't have to always run the show (and hence less chance of burnouts)

I seriously think people need to look at this. The other crafting systems were unacceptable to us, so we can make our own, the best system for us, and be admired by the PW world.

I'd like to be involved with this, or even lead it at some future date. We'll see how much people want this.

[Ronan]

Well, this is how I would see it. Use the PC's skill points (perhaps the Craft Armor, Craft Weapon, Craft Trap, or even Lore) as a way to determine skill in crafting. You add skill points and go up in ranks. Hopefully NWN2 will give us more skill point options, such as just as alchemy or bowyer crafts. Int can determine how many trades you can have just like languages.

We've never intended to keep lore or only limit ourselves to the skills NWN2 provides. 3.5's skillset will be in prior to live. The skills and gain rates of those skills are defined in the d20 srd, so anyone planning on working on the crafting system should make themselves familiar with them:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/perform.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/profession.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm

In the case of crafting individual items, we certainly don't want it to take as long as the DMG spells out for mundane gear. But we should keep the gain rates and things in mind which are spelled out in the SRD.

At the heart of the crafting system would be a way of tracking time spent on a task, either logged out or in. While not terribly difficult, this would be something that would need to be shared with other portions of the ACR. But thoes are details that can be worked out in NWN2 tech.

[Rick7475]

I fully agree with time spent. I would have each crafting attempt last a period of game time, for example, pounding iron ore into a bar or ingot should be minumum 2 hours game time (roughly 14 minutes) which would be one attempt. So you would do that attempt, (fail or succeed) but could not do another attempt for 2 hours.

This would ensure less lag on the server and people would spent a relaistic amount of time crafting.

[Fionn]

I'm not sure I can buy MW crafting of +1 vs [Orc]. From a balance aspect, it's less than +1ATT/+1DMG (which I believe 3.5 allows). From an RP aspect, how to you make an arrow that seeks Orcs, but not Ogres?

[Nerine]

From an RP aspect, how to you make an arrow that seeks Orcs, but not Ogres?

That's easy... Orcbone arrow heads! Go Nerine, Go Nerine, Go Me!

[Fionn]

From an RP aspect, how to you make an arrow that seeks Orcs, but not Ogres?

That's easy... Orcbone arrow heads! Go Nerine, Go Nerine, Go Me!

And how exactly does Orcbone hurt Orcs more than Humans?

More of a flavor complaint than anything else. This smells of video game to me, unless we are going to deviate from 3.5 and imply a Dwarven Weaponsmith is imparting 'Ki' to the arrows and using the magical properties of the Orcbone. This, of course, brings the arguement "Why only +1?"

[AcadiusLost]

I don't know, I was under the impression that anything like that pretty much fell under enchantments, and there is a basic understanding that you need to have the "+1" as a base to add other properties to, for weapons at least.

There is some grey area with armors and miscellaneous items (everbright armor, for example- or mithril/adamantine), but generally those get treated as magical in any case.

[NESchampion]

I'm not sure I can buy MW crafting of +1 vs [Orc]. From a balance aspect, it's less than +1ATT/+1DMG (which I believe 3.5 allows). From an RP aspect, how to you make an arrow that seeks Orcs, but not Ogres?

Not seeks, does better damage or is more likely to hit (i.e. pierce their typical armor).

Makes more sense for non-projectile weapons though.

[Nerine]

And how exactly does Orcbone hurt Orcs more than Humans?

Ah well you see all living matter naturally acquires an inverse sympathetic enchantment based on the thaumic energy flows in a fundamentally magical multidimensional universe ... yuh, it's a video game.

Hmmm... I'm gonna have to dig out my D&D books, they're currently packed from moving - oh I wish WotC would hurry up with the PDF versions - oh hang on, they're not doing the core rulebooks - gits.

[Mulu]

Ambition, adventure, and desire aren't provided by crafting??

Only if your ambition and desire is to make mundane short swords, which is pretty low. Alternatively, if your ambition and desire is to get rich and or powerful from mundane crafting, then that means you intend to abuse the system. *shrugs*

Remember, NPC commoner craftsmen also make mundane items, so it can't require a lot of adventure to get the materials otherwise they won't realistically be available from NPC merchants.

If a group goes out to adventure to gather materials, do they not need to overcome the same challenges as you just stated?

As above, hopefully no adventure is required for mundane crafting, or the items won't exist on NPC merchants.

So, first you dislike crafting because it could be solo oriented; then when I point out that it can be group oriented, you dislike it again because you don't feel people will be logged in to barter for materials, form groups to gather materials, or try to sell their wares to other PCs?

So, you want players to have something to do without DM's, but not solo because that discourages RP and not groups because that won't work any better than currently. Kindof rules out anything that could possibly be added staticly for characters. Just a bit.

Obviously I want nothing of the sort. What I want is for players to have multiplayer roleplaying adventuring opportunities in the absence of a DM. Crafting doesn't provide that, only statics do. Crafting tends to imbalance PC economies, create hoarding behavior of components, encourage solo farming, and take people away from multiplayer rp. Now, some of my concerns have been addressed by TDawg and others, so hopefully ALFA's crafting system won't repeat the most common mistakes, but at the end of the day crafting is really an MMO activity, not a D&D activity.

Even though you haven't shown in any meaningful way that crafting encourages soloing other than saying it does, I'll take it at face value; let's say it does. And let's say we code it so you can't refine get any resources without being in a party with at least two other people in the same area as you. And then, we make it so when a DM is online, you can't access crafting devices.

So now you can't get stuff alone; if no DMs are on you can craft away, but if a DM comes on you're "too tired to continue" and thus need to go to an Inn and relax and RP.

Whoop Whoop! DM Alert! Drop your crafting and start rp'ing immediately! Hilarious.

Nevermind the RP associated with gathering a group for claiming resources, bartering for materials for your goods, and trying to sell / advertise your wares; that kind of RP doesn't qualify as RP apparantly.

Absolutely it doesn't, since it basically doesn't happen. People gather materials solo, hoard resources, and try to sell/advertise wares using the forum. Unless we come up with a way to prevent all of that, which goes back to "boy this is sure a lot of effort for little gain."

Remember, this is all coming from Mr. "Just trust the players to rp." I've seen a before and after where crafting was introduced to a high rp server. It was a disaster. People standing at crafting tables, still wearing full plate, ignoring everything around them; people dashing out at server reset to find rare crafting components, and hoarding any extras in their PChests; people spending hours and hours trying to mine ore and thus being unavailable for multiplayer rp.

Well, we'll see what happens. I suppose the best argument for crafting is that it can always be removed later if it turns out to be a bad idea.

Nerine's idea seems to be the best one put forth so far.

+1

I think the NPC herbalist in Shadowdale does/did something like this.

As far as rare component gathering, randomizing the location would at least reduce the farming aspect a bit. Could *also* randomize whether you find anything or not, rather than have it be first come first serve (/me remembers all the server reset inspired dashing on servers with crafting implemented). Or they could all be monster bits, with ore and wood simply being purchaseable. Then again, coming up with crafting options always makes me want to poke my eye out with a pencil, so I'll stop now.

[NESchampion]

I've seen a before and after where crafting was introduced to a high rp server. It was a disaster. People standing at crafting tables, still wearing full plate, ignoring everything around them; people dashing out at server reset to find rare crafting components, and hoarding any extras in their PChests; people spending hours and hours trying to mine ore and thus being unavailable for multiplayer rp.

Then you spank them for it. Done and done.

Heck, with static quests you could see people running them solo too, doesn't much contribute to RP that way either. But I digress, as BW has asked for other opinions, and I doubt anyone is unclear as to where I stand on the matter.

[Dorn]

hmm

this pole was about mundane items

most of what i see discussed it about enchanted or mithral adamantine armours etc

this might change my mind from 'i dont care' to 'no'.

why dont we JUST do mundane for now.

See how it goes

THEN if it's all hunky dory we can add magic item crafting in later.

walk before we run and all that

[Fionn]

I've seen a before and after where crafting was introduced to a high rp server. It was a disaster. People standing at crafting tables, still wearing full plate, ignoring everything around them; people dashing out at server reset to find rare crafting components, and hoarding any extras in their PChests; people spending hours and hours trying to mine ore and thus being unavailable for multiplayer rp.

Then you spank them for it. Done and done.

I hate customer service. If I have to spend my time parsing logs so I can poove (even to myself) that somebody deserves a spanking, I'm going to be seriously questioning how to stop it in the toolset.

I'm woefully inadequate at metagaming, so it took me months to find out peeps were abusing the AT I'd placed in Q to serverhop. I simply added a script to the AT to petrify (permanantly) anyone that shouldn't be using it. Presto, no more problem.

If we can't make crafting without needing to police it, I'd seriously rather spend my time filling requests for custom gear than parsing logs to catch those abusing the borked system.