Brainstorm: The Next Evolution of Alfa

[oldgrayrogue]

"In my book, campaign characters actually should be quarantined until validated by their DM. No DM no game, like table top." --TA

Why exactly would this be needed TA? A campaign PC exists only to play in the campaign and then ceases to exist once the campaign ends. So it does not have all the liberty of a persistent PC -- it has a finite existence -- a significant restraint on liberty. It also has no advantages vis a vis PCs who are not in the campaign, nor should there be any interaction between them. All this would be is another impediment to gameplay which I admit ALFA has cornered the market on for years. Why limit the players of campaign PCs to play only while their DM is actually logged on? They will only be playing in the campaign when they are logged on with or without a DM. Who exactly are we "protecting" by quarantining a campaign PC when their DM is not logged on? The scores of other PW style players logged on to ALFA's servers on a daily basis? Lets be real. The whole impetus for this discussion is that few folks log on to just play with each other anymore. So if we move to campaign PCs we should have another rule that says if 4 players in that campaign want to log on and RP in between sessions, plan, craft, commiserate, shop, whatever they can't do so without a DM? Why exactly? Who is that hurting? Except the players of the campaign PCs of course.

As far as I'm concerned the vast majority of our rules have been rendered completely outdated and counterintuitive given the current size and realities of our community. A quarantine rule would be the same sort of thing. Lets prevent a campaign group from logging in and RPing about their story, without their DM because the other 2 or 3 people who might log on solo across our 4 empty servers might get upset. Makes no sense to me.

But what if a bunch of campaign PCs should run into a non-campaign PC you say? So what. I highly doubt there would be any interaction, and if there was I'm guessing it would be limited and not likely to involve CvC, which is the only legit concern. So lets have a third mandatory rule (because ALFA loves rules): No CvC whatsoever between campaign PCs and non-campaign PCs. Done.

And as far as Zelk's comment about free gear and levels, ALFA already provides those via the RPXP script. The only investment required in ALFA to obtain levels is one of time -- lots of time yeah but still only time. No story, no risk no nothing required beyond time spent IG in which your character is not "idle." With levels comes increasing opportunity to obtain "free" gear through decreased risk. I'd rather get more players in game and playing in campaigns, with free gear and levels up front, if that's what it takes to make them log in.

I posted in this thread because it is an effort for us to take a really good look at ourselves as a community, where we are at and what we want out of the community. I would frankly prefer the "old ALFA" of a 24/7 PW with gads of player to player RP going on all the time, but our reality is much different. There comes a time when we have to confront that reality and adapt to it for the good of the community. If not, what will ultimately happen is that the few folks left who play regularly will find other ways to occupy their time or do as Zelk suggests and host their own ALFA open source server to just run campaigns ala NWN Connections. In fact, that is starting to sound like a really good alternative to me to the constant red tape and nostalgia based decision making we engage in in ALFA. But we can have both you know, PW and campaign. Its really not that hard.

[Twin Axes]

"In my book, campaign characters actually should be quarantined until validated by their DM. No DM no game, like table top." --TA

Why exactly would this be needed TA?

Because a campaign PC would exist entirely within its own universe, where time only flows when the group meets and stops at the end of each session, again as in table top rpgs. It would retain the purity of the concept. Also, as you say the same people tend to log on and only interact with each other. Well, if players logged on with their campaign PCs between sessions, this would be even more prevalent. If we can't log on with campaign PCs outside of campaign, it will encourage us to log on with PW characters instead and thus boost the persistent population, interact with people outside of campaigns etc.

[oldgrayrogue]

"In my book, campaign characters actually should be quarantined until validated by their DM. No DM no game, like table top." --TA

Why exactly would this be needed TA?

Because a campaign PC would exist entirely within its own universe, where time only flows when the group meets and stops at the end of each session, again as in table top rpgs. It would retain the purity of the concept. Also, as you say the same people tend to log on and only interact with each other. Well, if players logged on with their campaign PCs between sessions, this would be even more prevalent. If we can't log on with campaign PCs outside of campaign, it will encourage us to log on with PW characters instead and thus boost the persistent population, interact with people outside of campaigns etc.

I can understand why you may think that but I don't believe it is the case. I think people play the style they like to play within the free time they have, and for most people left in ALFA its campaign style. I like both but I think I am in the minority.

[Zelknolf]

(all of the liberty of a persistent character, plus free gear and levels).

I'm sorry but this is not a correct representation of what I said. It would be either or. In my book, campaign characters actually should be quarantined until validated by their DM. No DM no game, like table top.

Anyone remember Neverwinter Nights Connections? The idea would be to add that kind of function to Alfa, to add another tool to the toolbox.

It is, however, an accurate representation of what OGR said-- which is what usually happens with the campaign PC proposals (also the multiple PC proposal, and also players tried to ignore the multiple PC restrictions anyway).

Though if you want Neverwinter Connections, specifically, you can already do that. The sessions on Neverwinter Connections were usually hosted by the DM, and as I noted, open source means you can host your own. Frankly, it's what I'd prefer; it saves us a lot of headache on the infrastructure and core rules end. It'd probably save us a lot of headache on the policy end, but that's really more DMA and PA business.

[Veilan]

I am somewhat disheartened that the trend to call for the alienation of people for the convenience and gratification of some (who usually already are well-involved) continues unabated, despite the disastrous results to player numbers, activity and interconnection we seem to be observing.

I am also... morbidly fascinated?... that somehow, we seem to have effectively managed to make a zero-sum game out of something that ought to have been a virtuous circle. Rather than more fun bringing in more players, involvement and activity, we seem to have developed a model to give more fun to few players, and made it politically self-sustaining through the resulting disenfranchisement of the rest.

Still, an interesting read and a good discussion to have.

Cheers,

[Heero]

Yeah, people, just let it ride and hope for the best.

[oldgrayrogue]

I am somewhat disheartened that the trend to call for the alienation of people for the convenience and gratification of some (who usually already are well-involved) continues unabated, despite the disastrous results to player numbers, activity and interconnection we seem to be observing.

I am also... morbidly fascinated?... that somehow, we seem to have effectively managed to make a zero-sum game out of something that ought to have been a virtuous circle. Rather than more fun bringing in more players, involvement and activity, we seem to have developed a model to give more fun to few players, and made it politically self-sustaining through the resulting disenfranchisement of the rest.

Still, an interesting read and a good discussion to have.

Cheers,

Probably the most patronizing post I have read in a while. What exactly is preventing the "disenfranchised" from logging in and playing? There is an easy solution to ALFA's current state Veilan. All the folks who stopped playing regularly can just log in and start playing again. Seriously, is your point that if some must suffer "alienation" all must suffer? Look at the forums. The folks playing in campaigns in ALFA are the most active players in ALFA at the moment. My main objective in these posts has been to get more people logged in to ALFA and playing. Is it any wonder that when Ronan announces a new campaign a dozen players raise their hands to participate? or when Zelk does the same we have a group ready to retire PCs and reroll to get in on the action? Our community has been whittled down to a group of folks who like to play in campaigns, and then some, like me, who like to play a PW style. Personally, I'll sacrifice my preferred playstyle just to get more regular gaming with serious RPers I enjoy playing with. The fact remains that the campaign style of play is entirely inconsistent with our current rule set. Oh and if you read my posts you'd see that the PW would still be up and running for those few who want to play in it, albeit usually alone with not a lot of story going on. That is indeed a shame, but it is where we are it seems.

[Zelknolf]

So, might be that ya don't know-- you're usually the most-DMed player in ALFA in any given month, OGR; there are a couple exceptions (Talonbreak's rampaging server hopping; shad0wfax's first month with a DM stick; stuff like that), but from the perspective of players who usually get no DM time, arguments to facilitate your play sound kinda crappy.


Though to Veilan's answer: the breakdown is roughly the same proportions as it was four years ago. About 10% of ALFA gets the majority of the DM time and about 50% gets no DM time. Makeup of teams and initiatives and policies and blah blah never actually seem to meaningfully change that. It'll probably persist for as long as DMs don't hold themselves to any standards of quality (not from an administrative perspective, mind; external pressure will probably just make our DMs sneaky; this needs to be internal and intrinsic, which means we have to change culture).

[oldgrayrogue]

So, might be that ya don't know-- you're usually the most-DMed player in ALFA in any given month, OGR; there are a couple exceptions (Talonbreak's rampaging server hopping; shad0wfax's first month with a DM stick; stuff like that), but from the perspective of players who usually get no DM time, arguments to facilitate your play sound kinda crappy.

First off Zelk, these arguments are not to facilitate my play, I'd like to get as many people playing in ALFA as possible.

Second, I like to think that I get DMd as much as I do because people like to play with me and have me in their groups, and unlike many others I remain an active player in the community. I also am more than willing to reroll and work with DMs to fit into their campaigns.

Third, this thread isn't about me, I don't think.

[Zelknolf]

If I could ask, then, who the target audience is?

If it's the people who don't reroll routinely, then I don't think it will work-- people who don't reroll regularly don't do so because that's not fun to them. The resulting characters tend to be shallow stereotypes, and without the history of play, or the complexity of personality resulting from years of interactions, the characters tend to hold less interest. Granted, I haven't spoken to every one of these players (many just stopped playing after the first PC died, which makes them hard to reach), but this is mostly about the concrete results: who is likely to get another PC in game as a result of allowing more PCs? The answer is likely the people who are already at the limits of numbers of PCs and mobility of those PCs--which is (perhaps not coincidentally) the folk already getting DM time.

That itself doesn't seem inherently bad, except if the presence of these players somehow excludes others from sessions, but problem comes when these arbitrarily-leveled/geared PCs of little background or complexity start hitting the world/story of these more-complex/more-established characters, as there is some expectation that peers will be equally developed (there is of course the other side, where people expect a long pedigree of successful violence instead of complex characterization). If they only exist during DMed sessions, they're at least no more boat-rocking than NPCs. If they're let loose on the server with no or minimal restriction, there's a vastly-increased presence and a more-immediate need to handle the results.

Thus, from this perspective, the suggestion seems to be self-serving. The people who already pick up new PCs will continue to do so (with less restriction) and the trend toward only serving this disposible action-oriented gameplay will be all the more reinforced.

[FoamBats4All]

I would like to see suggestions that cater to players that are less active or that have left, personally. Getting people to come back is likely more valuable than increasing the select few who already have active DM time. To that end, it might be good to see what incentives and helps the DM experience be more rewarding. Tech can make tools there, if we weren't all so burnt out. Allowing people to DM where they play might help, but that has a large host of issues.

But seeing as I have no actual solutions that I think will work out, I'll go back to lurking!

[oldgrayrogue]

I could not disagree more that players who reroll often end up with some kind of disposable shallow stereotype PCs without any depth to them. Really a slight to me personally and a lot of other players out there. To say only long lived characters have any depth is, well, I don't know what to call it. Read any novel, short story or other work of fiction, or watch any good film of less than two hours length and I think you will get my meaning. You certainly don't need a really long time to tell a really good story about an interesting character. If anything, I think what leads to a lack of story and character development is the lack of player to player RP interaction without a DM logged on. Player to player RP is of necessity about the characters. DM'd content of necessity tends to be about the story of the campaign, if only due to time constraints. That is one of the reasons I like PW style play.

To answer Foam's question I think three things can be done by DMs to encourage more PW style play.

1) Log on to a server regularly and actually engage the PCs in RP when you are on. Just drop stuff on them. Don't wait for them to ask you to RP with them.

2) Run more ad hoc character development centered sessions with individual PCs or groups. Snatch hooks from their bios and run with them or present them with moral dilemmas designed to flesh out who the PC is and what makes them tick.

3) Employ the Heegz method of an overarching server wide antagonist with set encounters and forum posts to bring the server alive and provide the PCs with a common back story that all characters regardless of alignment or level can RP around. This is not a campaign, it is merely an environmental context for the PCs to center their RP on.

If these three things were done regularly on every server, I would be willing to wager more folks would log on to RP in a PW style. Without them the only viable way to get any story is in a campaign. Folks just don't seem to have the time or the patience to just RP with each other anymore and make their own story.

[Darkmystic]

I find hilarious how you almost brag about the campaigns that are super restrictive about who gets to join and with plenty of DMs who only DM their best friends. The current campaings of ALFA are closed and some of us dont get to join them. Actually let people join and try making the games more accessable times for everyone and you will see Alfa grow instead of a few specific people getting all the action.

[FoamBats4All]

I find hilarious how you almost brag about the campaigns that are super restrictive about who gets to join and with plenty of DMs who only DM their best friends. The current campaings of ALFA are closed and some of us dont get to join them. Actually let people join and try making the games more accessable times for everyone and you will see Alfa grow instead of a few specific people getting all the action.

Wait what? We have a new campaign around that is the most open campaign it has ever had AFAIK. Didn't you complain about that? AK, Adanu, and Zelknolf are all advertising.

[Darkmystic]

AFAIK? And I asked if I could join it, I wasnt allowed.