Server proximity

[Ronan]

In any case, I'm wondering what people's opinions are about sacrificing better proposals for diversity (which is currently in the plans) or content for all levels (which I think is oddly missing? can't remember). Most people seem to say they prefer the best proposals regardless of anything else.

I fail to see how that has anything to do with anything. Any server that goes live within 12-18 months of ALFA's NWN2 live date will have to have low level content, no matter where it is situatied, otherwise they will hum along with 0 players, since it will take some time before anyone gets above low levels.

Alright, I'll agree with servers having to have low level content at live, but what does that have to do with planning for static content for a range of levels? Naturally the server at live won't bother to have high-level areas, thats common sense. But the plans of these servers stretch over years, and I don't think the state of the content at time 0 has much to do with anything by comparison.

Especially for servers that get picked to go live first, this is a very moot point, as they simply have no choice but to focus on low level content. Now if someone proposes to do somewhere like Thay or Calishman and dont plan on going live any time soon, fair enough go ahead with no low level content, but to repeatedly state low level content is something you will judge on almost makes it seem as though you think proposal teams have completely forgotten that we all start at square 1 come NWN2

No, I think you've forgotten some elements of the proposal system. Approved servers will go live and stay that way, possible for years, or through ALFA's entire life. Other servers won't be able to replace them in much-covetted live slots, unless a DMA really has the balls to take them down if they die. Who cares about the start of NWN2 compared to the whole life of the project? The whole idea of the proposal system is planning for the future. And while I find it very hard to believe these proposals will truely represent the quality of these servers one, two or three years from now, its the system people seem to want, so I have no choice but to go with it.

UD servers will have difficulty having significant low-level content. Urban servers will typically have difficulty having significant higher-level content (and by that, I mean 8+, I'm with Fionn that Hignar doesn't need to be challenged by statics). In some cases, NWN AI and such can event accuractly represent high-CR creatures in Faerun, and we can even have static content for much higher levels. And no, I'd prefer not to deprive people of something to do because we feel they shouldn't progress via static content after a certain level. If we want to slow down their leveling we can do that with the XP standards, not removing activities they find fun and challenging. However, in most cases higher-level content can't really be run properly without a DM, so its generally moot.

So I'll try to look at the best combination of servers which will serve ALFA the best. Again, if you'd rather I judge them all individually, I can just step down.

[MorbidKate]

I took that more as 'how they will handle higher level content'. Currently, we seem to have this paradigm where every server is expected to provide challenge (and loot) for every level - resulting in a steady march towards 20th via combat. We've had many complaints that "it's impossible to level after X". Personally, I see no reason to put in CR10 mobs just because we have PC12 players. We'll see what gets built.

There's certainly a point where adding high CR content is actually counter productive. There will come a time when a high level will have to depend upon DM RP awards for there xp more than combat because anything that's static that could give them any kind of challange would be insta-death for 95% of the playerbase and I see no point in building content just to keep a few Uber levels happy. The higher you go the less combat you should need to do and the more NPC-like you should become. That is, they should be involving other players more and more and giving these low levels something to do. In other words, getting involved and helping the DMs push things along.

Kate

[Fionn]

*points to the wise lady in the thong*

[Ronan]

There's certainly a point where adding high CR content is actually counter productive. There will come a time when a high level will have to depend upon DM RP awards for there xp more than combat because anything that's static that could give them any kind of challange would be insta-death for 95% of the playerbase and I see no point in building content just to keep a few Uber levels happy.

Kate

How about we build content because said content is what our setting includes? Awards are effectively irrelevant, we can set awards to whatever we like, or at least anything which is scriptable. All that builders have to do is set CR properly. Naturally in many cases the NWN2 game engine cannot accurately represent high-CR content, but in some cases it can, particularly with dumb mobs usually found alone or in small groups.

[fluffmonster]

as an aside...the key to handling high-levels is not high-level content, or managing lower levels. Its getting them together in a high-level party that can be DMd as such. A high level with no other high levels around is going to end up a loneyly player, and those PCs that cannot or will not make the compromises to aggregate with other high-levels will be (and indeed have been) condemned to long stretches of no action.

[Fionn]

as an aside...the key to handling high-levels is not high-level content, or managing lower levels. Its getting them together in a high-level party that can be DMd as such. A high level with no other high levels around is going to end up a loneyly player, and those PCs that cannot or will not make the compromises to aggregate with other high-levels will be (and indeed have been) condemned to long stretches of no action.

Well, when a High Priest of Bane is grouping with a Palidin of Ilmater, somebody's gonna bitch.

Bodi's been sitting in his Temple, paying PC Lackies to do various tasks. Max is pursuing magical research which will be hella cool when completed. My own PC (admittedly, a lowly 9th) often accompanies lower levels to provide guidance, protection and let them know how awesome Ar-Tel Quesir are.

Perhaps the three of us would have more fun together, or retired and playing new PCs, but we enjoy these styles of play. While I'm generally open to allowing everyone to enjoy ALFA as they wish, PGing mobs from PC1-PC20 is something I'd rather discourage.

There are *some* higher CR mobs that the engine can handle well, but often dangerous cannon areas involve intelligence that AJAI just doesn't duplicate. Other areas involve large tribes that the engine cannot duplicate.

What we often end up with is Orcs with 30+ Spot on their sentries, leaders with 15 PC levels, and other such non-cannon tribes. Adding uberness in place of numbers and tactics may approximate the challenge, but I'd rather see such events DM scheduled. If you want to take out [Halaster], ping the DM when you get to the plot door that says "Beyond lies Halaster's inner sanctum - contact a DM if you wish to proceed".

[fluffmonster]

Its getting them together in a high-level party that can be DMd as such.

[beowulf]

so i voted no but i have an idea for those who wish to make travleing from server to server more dificult. build a server that is dedicated solely for trasportaion..... give it a ship, a long arsed road, wagons, gnomb air ship so on and so forth..... have that server set up so that the only way to go from server a to server b is through server 0 have it set up so that when you try to portal from WD to DF it puts you either on a wagon the road or a ship difrent costs for each. and to go from say DF to um NC ship or gnomb air ship......so on and so forth have each type of vehical have a difrent cost and chance for runing into an abush...like if you decide to walk the road you got a 80% chance of comeing across something that wants to eat you and um 20% of running into something that can eat you were as wit the air ship you would only have a 10% chance of running into a problem and a 5% of something that might beable to eat you.

my argument agest makeing server travle more dificult is if you cant move from server to server then why have a network of servers to beguin with..

[Fionn]

what, I gotta read *all* yer words now fluff?

[Mulu]

Just a quick aside, it's easy enough to make challenging monsters that trick the CR XP system (through use of skins and such) so that they don't award any xp to those strong enough to take them out. Thus allowing for challenge (and something to do) without xp reward and the continuing rise in level.

Then again, I still think we should have a 9th level cap. You people have never been as nerf nazi as I am.

[Rotku]

Then again, I still think we should have a 9th level cap. You people have never been as nerf nazi as I am.

I love this guy! When are you running for Admin?

[Ronan]

Just a quick aside, it's easy enough to make challenging monsters that trick the CR XP system (through use of skins and such)...

While I understand where your coming from and why you'd want to do this, please don't do anything like this for ALFA in NWN2! The XP awarding and loot systems will depend on an accurately set CR. All XP and static loot awards will go through these systems, and be based on CR. If we want to adjust loot or XP based on any variable, we can do so in global scripts which effect the entirety of ALFA.

Not to mention it sucks when a DM needs some mob quick out of the creator, and picks a CR "4" which is actually around CR 8, and deaders an entire party. Been on the giving and receiving end of that one.

[Varon]

Late as usual, but here are my two cents...

Currently we are simulating distance either by making travel dangerous and/or expensive. In the former case travel is only possible for higher levels, and in the later it becomes a commodity, and because of our wealth standards, higher levels are more likely to afford it than the lower ones.

So, immersion issues aside, the farther apart the servers are, the more dangerous or more expensive the travel should be, effectively making it inaccessible to lower level PCs.

It all boils down to connectivity rather than proximity. Can we have geographically disparate servers with exotic, differing and interesting locales and at the same time have them connected in a manner that would allow relatively safe and affordable travel by all levels? Do we even want to?

To be honest, I believe that most of us would want the option for our PCs to hitchhike across all of ALFA if they felt like it. It's just that at the same we don't want the "other guy" to server hop. Furthermore, we have a very wide spectrum of personal standards as to what counts as server hopping, or what constitutes a reasonable and acceptable RP of travel.

Maybe I didn't do my homework. Maybe a proposal is already there on the forums that addresses those issues. But assuming there isn't any, I think we are putting the cart in front of the horse in this instance. I think we need to agree on a travel system for ALFA2, one that would discourage server hopping and yet not be too prohibiting to PCs of all levels, and at the same time wouldn't require DM intervention and censorship.

For the record, I find Inabyrun's idea about caravans to be very interesting.

-Varon

[Mulu]

Then again, I still think we should have a 9th level cap. You people have never been as nerf nazi as I am.

I love this guy! When are you running for Admin?

Um, never. At least not while I'm still with the wife.

[Voersaa]

I voted yes for pretty much the same reasons that Ronan gave in his initial post.