Planetouched for ALFA-NWN2

[Cassiel]

Has anyone yet pointed out that if we don't have some sort of background screening on planetouched characters, I would strongly suspect that DMs will end up having toons whose players believe they are descended from - um - Beelzebub himself. Or possibly a Toril-related demon lord, none of whom I can name off hand.

So I'd suggest adjudication of backgrounds by the PA or representatives. Note that this does *not* equate to limiting who can play them, it merely ensures their backgrounds aren't ridiculous.

[Mikayla]

I think Cassiel's point applies across the board actually is not limited to planetouched - one does not have to be planetouched to claim to be one of Elminster's bastard children, or the progeny of Alustriel, etc. Anytime a PC makes up a backstory with such a component, be they planetouched or not, they should have to get DM approval.

[Brokenbone]

"Hey you four, please deliver these pancakes to the orphanage across town for 1gp."
- Random equal opportunity static granting NPC of some future server

...

PCs (or NPCs) who are the centre of attention due to a gimmick (including, in cases, racial choices) may sometimes be a joy to play, DM, or be around generally. I've played with folks whose concepts included blindness, muteness, wacky cultural differences, etc. All fine.

There's a possibility of going to the other end of the spectrum though, I guess any concern would be about the risk of crossing the line from "the fantastic" to "the ridiculous." Unfortunately every ALFAn will probably draw the line someplace different.

At the same time, different servers might have different thresholds for tolerance... Waterdeep will have its jaded NPC populace, accustomed to all kinds of weirdness, and maybe some Dalesfolk will be prepared to burn those winged/horned/furry/scaly creatures at the stake. Zhents might welcome some of the more typically evil sorts (half-orcs, tieflings?) with open arms, though the Red Plumes of Hillsfar are willing to drive pretty much any non-human out of town. Come to think, the Monsters of Faerun quote in the Genasi entry is as follows (p. 71):

IN THE REALMS
Denizens of all the planes pass through Faerun with surprising frequency, and half-planar and planetouched children are often the result. Genasi are usually found in either isolated wilderness areas or sophisticated urban centres such as Waterdeep, where their unusual appearance raises few eyebrows.

...

Separate from generally permitting, for ALFA, the use of planetouched characters, I guess server teams deciding whether any races get a harder time than others in the different points of interest they control, would be suggested. Sometimes scripts (or conversations) can help set the mood of NPC interaction, but it can be double or triple the work of doing no customization (i.e., the healer priest doesn't care if you're Thayan, planar, halfling, whatever). Alternately some places might have an honor system they encourage players to follow (i.e., tieflings please stay away from the Ilmater Priest NPC who gives out babysitting statics). Behind the scenes, teams might well discuss common prejudices they ought attribute to their named / generic NPCs to keep Live DMing consistent, who knows (i.e., Waterdeep it may be that no one cares, Zhentil Keep, an unescorted aasimar gets clapped in irons and a one way ticket to Bane's temple, can't say!)

[Mikayla]

Bump - as the issue has arisen in Rusty's Q&A thread, here is the most recent Planetouched-Races thread.

[Nyarlathotep]

Fluff is not correct about Planetouched races not being a dead horse in ALFA. Unfortunately, the thread listing dead horses - cunningly titled 'Dead Horses', stickied in this very forum, and containing Planetouched as a PC race - appears to have disappeared in the past few days; regardless, that's a pretty convincing indication of their status. (I've asked Hialmar to try and locate the thread as it may have fallen victim to the forum pruning.)

A simple forum search reveals that, although the idea of Planetouched PCs has occasionally been raised - we're talking a total of thirty-seven returns on 'Planetouched' over the life of these forums (what, forty six months?), many of which do not form anything like a suggestion that we ought to have Planetouched PCs. Now, I happen to term that an unshaken consensus; 'unshaken, if not unchallenged', if more clarity is needed. Either way, the consensus is there, just like there is a consensus that players ought to have only one PC - which is another dead horse, even if occasionally challenged. Now, the key point is that if we want to introduce Planetouched PCs for NWN2, we should do it for a better reason than simply that they are included with the program, and the fact that they exist in the program in no way creates a presumption that they ought to exist in our game world.

((Rather than clutter up the election thread with a planar debate figuired I'd put this here.))

They exist as a FRCS presented race which when added to the fact that they are a base selectable race in NWN 2 would make it seem more reasonable for a strong argument to be required against their inclusion than a need for a strong argument being necessary for their inclusion. The primary reason plane touched were a dead horse in NWN was because it would have required so much work from a tech/modeling perspective that it was a dead idea before the discussion could even begin.

Now one of the more common arguments against them is that they damage the suspension of disbelief, that argument however would need to be based on the idea that if we include them a majority or substantial minority would play them to the exclusion of the other more common races (common being a relative term as some locales would have more planetouched than elves or gnomes). Using canon as a guide planetouched aren't a huge percentage of the population but they certainly exist, one knightly order in WD has no less than 13 assimaar as members.

The other argument would be implementing NPC specific reactions for them, which would be ornerous if we were to do so. But if we were to use this as a reason we would also need to do race specific reactions for the other races which we only did on a limited basis in NWN and will probably not be much greater in NWN2. Would the reaction be greater for a planetouched? Depends where you are...an elf in Zhentil Keep or Hillsfar is going to require considerable more effort from a DM team than would a tiefling or gensai. In many places the reactions would be generic, Faerun is a fairly magic savy setting, only a few regions are listed as being suspicious of magic or its consequences. That is to say the populace is by and large used to strange things.

Now the XP/level balance issue. Planar are no more than drow, so unless we are going to revisit their(and other races inclusion) thats not really a strong argument against. If we do ban drow, duegar, etc then thats a different issue.

[indio]

I find planetouched to be a little bit silly, for no good reason to those that like them. They're just so kitsch.

[Nyarlathotep]

I do understand the silly argument, though to be honest nothing is so ridiculous as halflings. At least claims to supernatural heritage is a staple of myths and history. The only good hin is Belkar (or a dead hin I suppose).

[Vendrin]

Has anyone yet pointed out that if we don't have some sort of background screening on planetouched characters, I would strongly suspect that DMs will end up having toons whose players believe they are descended from - um - Beelzebub himself. Or possibly a Toril-related demon lord, none of whom I can name off hand.

So I'd suggest adjudication of backgrounds by the PA or representatives. Note that this does *not* equate to limiting who can play them, it merely ensures their backgrounds aren't ridiculous.

Or... Just let the PCs claim whatever they wish. Just because they claim it, doesn't make it true.

I do understand the silly argument, though to be honest nothing is so ridiculous as halflings. At least claims to supernatural heritage is a staple of myths and history. The only good hin is Belkar (or a dead hin I suppose).

Bingo. Millia will always be sillier then any planetouched.

[Brimsar the Wanderer]

I am against them, as well as all EL races.

DMs DO NOT take the time now, to lower xp due to non-favored class multi-classing, or EL races now, for the most part. I am sure their is some dedicated DMs that do, but I'd wager the bulk of DMs just simply do not do this.

Maybe with proper DM training we will get there.

Disclaimer: I speak with only experience and interest in NWN & ALFA the first generation, as I have not (nor intend to) played NWN 2.

[AcadiusLost]

NWN2 will see XP penalties applied to LA races, it's already coded and working on the PnP rules- their ECL is used in place of their number of class levels for combat XP, and their cleass level thresholds are much higher than non-LA races. I suspect that most who might want to try a LA race (such as planetouched) will find it not worth the hassle of spending far longer trying to escape level 1. The few who are very dedicated to playing these races for RP reasons may stick with them, but I don't believe they will predominate in any appreciable way.

I'm not sure that I share the opinion that the difficulty of escaping level 1 with a LA race PC will lead to more PGing and sympathetic DM compensation, but one way or another, the LA PC is going to have a difficult walk in NWN2-ALFA.

With regard to the continuity arguments, it can be looked at from two perspectives. From a NWN2 perspective, they're in the game already so arguments would need to be made as to why they should be /removed/ if they're inappropriate- but ALFA is a community, and one in which planetouched PCs have never been an option or consideration before. From that perspective, the argument needs to be made for whether they should be /added/ to our community. I'd say continuity of the community has more weight than continuity of the software as delivered. However, the community seems to be shrinking- people who come here for the NWN2 experience may quickly become the majority in time.

As a DM and a player, I've always been a fan of nuanced characters- unique in subtle ways rather than big, obvious, "look at me I'm different!" concepts. I don't think we need planetouched PCs in ALFA, though I don't believe they will be our undoing either. I certainly wouldn't want to DM on a server that had many of them, though- I'd quickly start to resent the amount of time spent making NPCs respond to the flaming-haired / rock-for-skin / etc PCs. Since it wouldn't happen when I wasn't possessing NPCs, it just sets up an oppositional dynamic with the DM team from square one.

[Veilan]

Eh...

I guess I'm mostly agreeing with AL's opinions.

Continuity of our community > software gimmicks, and carefully crafted in-depth, nuanced and interesting characters > zomg look at me I've got horns.

That may be an unfair quick generalization to some, regardless, I truly believe that ALFA can be thoroughly enjoyed without planetouched or other, well, exceptional races.

I only disagree on the "sympathetic DM compensation" point, I think it is fairly safe to say that this was given in NWN 1.

It can't be stressed enough that there is no "unfair" penalty applied to playing an LA race, and that they should not receive any special breaks or favours, neither due to the "strain" of their longer starting time (which by the way was a proposal mostly adopted from Inaubryn, himself an LA race player, and who therefore wasn't likely to suggest something onerously unbearable) nor their inherent attention needs.

[psycho_leo]

I have to say I don't really care if planetouched PCs make it or don't. Personally I haven't been inclined to play one even in the OC. Aasimar looks kinda neat, but the extra XP needed to get past lvl 1 combined with the high lvl of letality I've encountered in ALFA puts me off. If they make it in however, I'll do my best to accomodate the fact. We are here to have fun after all.

I have to say however, that the immersion argument can, as Fluff mentioned in the other thread, be applied not only to planetouched, but to drow, duergar and smurfs. As Rusty pointed out, the moment that second tiefling enters a tavern immersion is gone. But the moment your PC walks into the same tavern and finds a drow having a drink, immersion took a blow all the same.

[Nyarlathotep]

What about wild elves then? From an immersion standpoint they would be even less likely to appear in the aforementioned tavern than a almost any other imaginable race. Wild elves are rarely seen let alone encountered in any civilized location. Ghostwise Hin? They make the wild elves look common.

Can planetouched be identified by sight? Maybe. Yea that tiefling wit hthe goatlegs stands out but what about the one that just feels funny or merely makes others uncomfortable? Somewhere along the lines the idea that all planetouched are highly visible and readily identifiable traits became the default...when they really have one or two traits that could be as noticeable as horns or nothing more than a birthmark.

Are they gimmicks? Yep. Just like elves, hin, dwarves and every non-human race. In the vast majority of FR locations humans are between 80-95% of the population, anything that is not human has a fish out of water vibe to it and more than one or two can be immersion breaking.

As for DM attention, every exotic (non-human) race will have places where they will need that sort of stuff going on, no race more often than half-orcs...spawn of the most common and recognizeable hostile race in Faerun. Played strictly in most places HOs would require more attention than any other race since they represent a segment of population in direct conflict with the races of most servers and everyone knows what a HO is and where it comes from.

[psycho_leo]

What about wild elves then? From an immersion standpoint they would be even less likely to appear in the aforementioned tavern than a almost any other imaginable race. Wild elves are rarely seen let alone encountered in any civilized location. Ghostwise Hin? They make the wild elves look common.

Agreed. The point I'm trying to convey is that the immersion argument is not valid just for tieflings and genasi. It goes for a whole bunch of races we ALREADY have. If that's the only argument against I have to say it's flimsy at best.

[JaydeMoon]

Meh, if ALFA as a whole wants them, give it to them.

Have the PA poll the playerbase, the DMA poll the DMs.

They cast their vote based on their constituency.