Hardcore or Softcore - you guys need to pick

[oldgrayrogue]

I pretty much agree with Boom on this thread. Except for the rezzes. IMO rezzes should be strictly IC based -- and that means a really good reason why a PC would take a rezz. What I dislike is OOC "I don't want to lose my PC" rezzes. To me that is cheese. Stories end. Start a new one.

Castano, I also takes issue with the premise of your OP. You assume that people who would vote "yes" on the list of "issues" in the OP are not Hardcore RPers. Not so. Hardcore RP is something that you do IC. It has nothing to do with starting levels or PrCs or exceptional PCs. I can jump into any campaign with a level 10 Tiefling Shadowdancer and play that PC "hardcore." Now, if the discussion is about preferences and balance in a PW, or maintaining consistency in the setting, then fine.

Also, the prize for best post in this thread goes to Sidhe.

[oldgrayrogue]

I frankly don't get why we debate the DM corps' authority to limit the amount of workload they want to be exposed to.

Wow. I have to say something in regards to this.

I DM because I enjoy it. It is where my game is at. I feel no way obligated to GM any character regardless of their personal choices of the character they play. If I choose to engage with an out of the box character it only enhances my enjoyment and enthusiasim, such is choice. That is pretty fundamental for every DM I have ever met.

My advice is that if any DM is feeling that their enjoyment time is becoming work, it is time for them to put the dice down, step out from behind the screen, pick up a sword and start bashing monsters for a change.

Cheers

QFT

[Ithildur]

There are aspects of DMing here which require some responsibility to help maintain a somewhat consistent world though. If a group of Duergar PCs that were approved on say TSM comes up to the surface and knocks on the door to Felbarr, like it or not, some DM is going to have to log in at some point and deal with it, which will mean 'DMing' them regardless of the degree of enjoyment they get out of it or not.

Heck, chances are that even if they stayed down say in Old Delzoun/UD their entire careers, it's all but GTed that they are going to require certain kinds of DM attention; that's not just conjecture, but proven history. I'm not saying DMing should be 'work not fun' or that I'm against such exceptional PCs, simply reminding that they are exception for valid reasons and by that nature require some exceptional/special handling, which often translates into extra time/energy/resources from some DM or other.

[kmj2587]

I don't know why I'm doing this to myself, but nevertheless...

(1) Can both my PCs have PrCs? (Current rule: no, because DMs have deemed ALFA is already overpopulated with PrCs*)

I can honestly say I don't understand ALFA's obsession with the number of characters with PrCs. There should be standards for achieving a PrC (you can argue about whether to set an especially high bar or not) and any PC who achieves them should be granted that PrC. Complaining about the number of PCs who have PrCs seems like a corollary to what the real issue would be: the perception that the standards for PrCs are too low.

If standards for PrCs are agreed upon, those standards should be followed and any player with any character should be allowed a PrC for which they qualify under our rules. To tell a player that they can't pursue a path they've been planning with their character simply because other players have taken all the PrC slots strikes me as arbitary (especially if there is no set quota), unfair and limiting to a player's RP.

(2) Can both my PCs be exceptional? (Current rule: no, because DMs have deemed ALFA already overpopulated (in terms of with exceptional PCs*)

I am more amenable to this particular restriction because I believe two particular things:
a) ALFA has an interest in maintaining the rare and exceptional nature of those classes/races we list under the category of exceptional PCs.
b) To the extent that we intend to enforce this rarity by the use of a quota system, we can give the greatest number the best chance to be able to play one of these PCs by allowing only one per active player at a time.

That being said, it may be worth revisiting the list of classes and races that require exceptional applications and seeing if it can be trimmed down at all to allow for more player freedom in this area without giving up our control on the rare/exceptional population.

(3) Can I rez a PC repeatedly? (No you should not (no hard cap here))

This is a difference between the culture of the community and our rules. There has long been a stigma associated with resurrection (particularly for elves), especially if a character is resurrected multiple times. There has never been a rule against it though, as there would be no obvious reason to disallow it and plenty of circumstances in which it might make sense for a character to respond to multiple attempts at returning them to their mortal coil.

This is also a collective action vs. individual incentive problem like Ronan mentioned earlier. Everyone likes the idea of a world in which returning from the dead is a rare and wonderful event... until they're the one who has died. Everyone wants to be the special snowflake.

(4) Can I rebuild a PC to something new? (No)

I agree here. Persistence is not simply a question of whether or not the servers run 24/7. The heart of a persistent world is in creating a continuous narrative timeline that advances without all the backtracking/retconning/take-backsies of more casual games. It makes no sense in such a world for a character to have traded all their abilities and skills for new ones.

(5) Can I offer to rebuild a warlock to a rogue to get it out of game? (no I prefer they become sorcerers, which has always been the go to rebuild option for grandfathered warlocks, see DMA for other options)

I would rather not see grandfathered warlocks rebuilt for the same reason I would rather not see any PCs rebuilt.

(6) Can we start at lvl 3 or lvl X if our PC dies in the middle of a campaign? (no, this is only allowed on the forthcoming NWN1 servers HEEGZ may implement)

This really comes down to the more existential question of whether ALFA is a PW or a shared campaign space. This debate comes with much larger questions than starting level and I highly doubt it's worth getting into here.

(7) Can all ALFA PCs have the option to start at lvl 3? (no.)

I am not even going to touch this one.

[Castano]

OGR I left RP out of the title for a reason. I mean a "hardcore" game environment. start is lvl 1, there's little opportunity for the bells and whistles that make playing DnD easier...that sort of thing.

For example you could be "hardcore RP" in a game world where the gods have deemed nobody should ever die and they always rez everyone for free. That would not be a "hardcore" gaming environment. Ditto level 10 start, etc.

[Castano]

kmj we never decline anyone [edit unless the bio sucks, then they are counseled on how to fix and resubmit] a 1st PrC, with 2 PCs we were confronted with people asking that both their live PCs have PrCs....that point seems lost in your comments.

[Xanthea]

PrCs call out for DMing, even if the DM'd quest requirement was recently lifted - keep in mind that the player must quest towards the PrC on their own, and they will undoubtedly ask for DM assistance in such. We dumped the DM quest requirement to stop DMs from approving PrCs (after much begging from player) and then not having the time to do the quest. It was not an easy decision - I did it because what we had before was broken. PrCs are supposed to be rare culminations of special skill and expertise. There should not be that many.

But this doesn't need to be the case at all. Obviously if ten drow are wandering around BG then it throws the mood of the server off, this just isn't the case at all for PrCs. Nobody's immersion is ruined by a group of dwarven PCs who all happen to be dwarven defenders, it's a skillset, not an RP factor.

[kmj2587]

kmj we never decline anyone [edit unless the bio sucks, then they are counseled on how to fix and resubmit] a 1st PrC, with 2 PCs we were confronted with people asking that both their live PCs have PrCs....that point seems lost in your comments.

Fair enough, I suppose I should have been more clear in my wording. I don't think whether or not the player's other PC has a PrC should matter. I think the only consideration should be whether or not the character in question has fulfilled ALFA's requirements for that PrC.

[FoamBats4All]

PrCs call out for DMing, even if the DM'd quest requirement was recently lifted - keep in mind that the player must quest towards the PrC on their own, and they will undoubtedly ask for DM assistance in such. We dumped the DM quest requirement to stop DMs from approving PrCs (after much begging from player) and then not having the time to do the quest. It was not an easy decision - I did it because what we had before was broken. PrCs are supposed to be rare culminations of special skill and expertise. There should not be that many.

But this doesn't need to be the case at all. Obviously if ten drow are wandering around BG then it throws the mood of the server off, this just isn't the case at all for PrCs. Nobody's immersion is ruined by a group of dwarven PCs who all happen to be dwarven defenders, it's a skillset, not an RP factor.

This. Partially.

Keep in mind PrCs are not all created equal. Their purposes in 3.5 are many: to add roleplay flavor, to expand character choices, to add faction-specific features, and to support multiclassing.

How much DM support do you need to become a frenzied berserker, or a duelist, or a eldritch knight? Not much, if any. But something like a Harper Agent, Red Dragon Disciple, or Bladesinger? Yeah, those are a bit more detailed, and should have some events surrounding their 'unlocking'.

No ones RP is ruined by having a multiclass thief/mage (arcane trickster) walking around. But if 40% of our player population are Red Wizards of Thay, yeah, it's too much saturation and hard to believe.

[dergon darkhelm]

Meh - I've got one guy with a PrC and another who's an exceptional. Hope I'm not ruining anyone's immersion or weighing down the DMs. I try to just play what I want to play.

[oldgrayrogue]

Meh - I've got one guy with a PrC and another who's an exceptional. Hope I'm not ruining anyone's immersion or weighing down the DMs. I try to just play what I want to play.

+1

[oldgrayrogue]

OGR I left RP out of the title for a reason. I mean a "hardcore" game environment. start is lvl 1, there's little opportunity for the bells and whistles that make playing DnD easier...that sort of thing.

For example you could be "hardcore RP" in a game world where the gods have deemed nobody should ever die and they always rez everyone for free. That would not be a "hardcore" gaming environment. Ditto level 10 start, etc.

Then I misunderstood. Thanks for the clarity. As to the questions:

(1) Can both my PCs have PrCs? (Current rule: no, because DMs have deemed ALFA is already overpopulated with PrCs*)

To me a PrC is just another class with a little built in RP flavor to back it up. Unless it is unbalancing it should be allowed. If it is unbalancing, then take it out. You can only play one PC at a time so what's the difference?

(2) Can both my PCs be exceptional? (Current rule: no, because DMs have deemed ALFA already overpopulated (in terms of with exceptional PCs*)

Again, you can only play one at a time so what's the big deal? I do agree however that the overall number of Exceptional races should be controlled. Classes, not so much.

(3) Can I rez a PC repeatedly? (No you should not (no hard cap here))

What is funny about this one is I never knew this was a rule. Is it? I thought if you have a friend who is a cleric that can cast the spell and the components then rezz away. Anyway, IMO rezzes should only ever be for a legit IC reason not to OOC keep playing your toon.

(4) Can I rebuild a PC to something new? (No)

My answer would be it depends on the reason. If someone takes the wrong feat or something by accident then why not? As long as it is brought up fairly promptly it should not be a big deal -- tech issues permitting. Wholesale rebuild? Come on, just reroll.

(5) Can I offer to rebuild a warlock to a rogue to get it out of game? (no I prefer they become sorcerers, which has always been the go to rebuild option for grandfathered warlocks, see DMA for other options)

This one is tricky to RP around but hey, we allowed Warlocks and then we didn't so I guess it would be nice to the affected players to give them a choice.

(6) Can we start at lvl 3 or lvl X if our PC dies in the middle of a campaign? (no, this is only allowed on the forthcoming NWN1 servers HEEGZ may implement)

If you ONLY play the PC in a campaign I don't see why not. It allows the more casual player to actually get in game and feel useful. For regular PCs I'd say no, because its not fair to everyone else who has to slog through the first 2 levels, but see number 7 below.

(7) Can all ALFA PCs have the option to start at lvl 3? (no.)

Should be yes. I have been an advocate of this forever. So in the current iteration of ALFA you can get to level three without ever encountering any risk pretty easy without ever seeing a DM. If you have tons of time on your hands you can just be logged in a lot and take advantage of the RPXP script. Or you can walk around doing repeatable fed ex statics while also get free RP XP. If you are lucky or in the right time zone you can get in on a few DM sessions and get there quicker. Except for the DM sessions you can get there pretty much without accomplishing anything of any IC significance, or even without leaving a tavern! After level 3 the progression slows down quite a bit and things even out. So why not just start at 3 and get on with it? I don't know. I guess its more fun to take a few weeks to slog around alone doing boring statics or sitting in a tavern, or praying some goblin doesn't crit you with a stone. But damnit this is ALFA! We're HARDCORE! I have to say, as first impressions of a PW go, this is a lousy one.

The only time I ever feel OOC pressure on how to play my PC is in the first few levels. Why? I don't really want him to die to something stupid. I don't really mind if he dies after that, or even if he dies heroicly in those first few levels, I just don't want it to be to a bite from a rat. But OGR, you say, you should enjoy those first few levels of getting to know your PC and others, playing the bumbling green adventurer right off the farm! Well, I don't, because its distracting and it sucks. After that I'm fine though, so I say lets start at 3 and get on with it. And then disable XP from all the boring riskless crap and INCREASE the static XP for adventuring statics that you can't do solo and that pose real risk. Now that my friends, is hardcore.

[Regas]

Cast, it's worth saying again that there's no easy fix for this, we all have different views on where various lines should be drawn. You're doing a great job as DMA and I appreciate that you are taking on the thankless job of trying to fine tune what the community collectively wants.

I know for my part the only thing that feels really off is a hard rule limiting PrCs to one per player. This really doesn't make sense to me and as I look over this thread with a few exceptions nearly everyone echos that this restriction doesn't fit with ALFA. The rule change was never really discussed with the DMs or members. Months ago it was brought up and handled as a "case by case" bases as part of the approval process- and there were no objections from the DM team. I'm not sure where the discussion was made about the PrCs being limited to one per player but it wasn't in any of the forums the dms can access. I'll repeat again, this is a major break from what we had before and seems to be a big deal, I really hope we can take a second look at this one issue, as I don't think it reflects what most folks want. I geuss this is why we do need polls on one level, as it's not easy to distinguish between the vocal minority and the average member.

[DarkHin]

Can't we just have a system where more mundane PrCs such as Eldritch Knight have no special requirement, faction PrCs, e.g. Harper Agent, have a RP requirement, and ridiculous PrCs (I'm thinking Red Dragon Disciple and Pale Master) are removed all together?

[Adanu]

And how are those ridiculous?