Evil character tolerance?

[Zelknolf]

I note the utter failure of in-character law enforcement to enforce the law vs. PCs. There's currently a 0% mortality rate for being convicted of capital crimes when the criminal happens to be a PC; they are all released with a spanking and a stern "tsk tsk." They may be sent to bed without supper, as well.

Perhaps that's meant to be in character, but I would think that making the argument based on "Law enforcement is there" should require that the law enforcement be there.

[Rotku]

I note the utter failure of in-character law enforcement to enforce the law vs. PCs. There's currently a 0% mortality rate for being convicted of capital crimes when the criminal happens to be a PC; they are all released with a spanking and a stern "tsk tsk." They may be sent to bed without supper, as well.

And then the DM recieved five individual PMs a few minutes later explaining how unfair that was and why wasn't there a proper trail with a jury.

[ElCadaver]

I can't recall which D&D based RPG it was, but there was one which, if you broke the law, a squad of law enforcers would materialise (cleric, two fighters and a mage), to take you into custody, or fight you to the death, as you should wish. I remember when I had finished the game, I took my high lvl character and commited a crime, and fought of wave after wave or law enforcers who got stronger and stronger. I lasted about 8 waves.

Yatar (nwn1) had a script that put your PC in jail for bearing arms in town, enforced by the watch.

So if you are a bad guy who can't hide, fight your way out or lie, your PC languises in prison until you PM reaches a DM who can sort it all out, and deliver the punishment you deserve. Oh, and logging after triggering such an event is the same as combat logging.

I mean, people want to be bad guys because of the danger element right? so lets give 'em what they want.!

Troll-ol-ol-ol-ol, lol-lol-lol-lol.

[t-ice]

I note the utter failure of in-character law enforcement to enforce the law vs. PCs. There's currently a 0% mortality rate for being convicted of capital crimes when the criminal happens to be a PC; they are all released with a spanking and a stern "tsk tsk." They may be sent to bed without supper, as well.

And then the DM recieved five individual PMs a few minutes later explaining how unfair that was and why wasn't there a proper trail with a jury.

Oh, the memories this brings back from Amn ... What's a jury, precious? And what could be "fairer trial" than the lord/king/powerthatbe deciding? This is medieval folks

On a more grounded note, the experience of several trial schemes from Amn is mixed at best. Mostly they didn't go down magnanimously, but on the other hand that also had to do with the extreme corruption expected in IC Amn. Which never did go too well across to most players, and lead to players OoCly ganging up and circling wagons around contemporary western values of "fairness" - in opposition to the setting the DMs were trying to uphold.

Trials can be great fun and energizing. They can also be extremely tricky to make go smoothly. People just will not appreciate that they've been outcunned no matter how glaringly obvious it is. Death by a roll of a die is much easier to accept.

[danielmn]

In the same vein as it being a midevil representative time without trials....I seriously doubt anyone would be questioned or proded too hard for dispatching a known criminal, if we are going along that line of thinking...with or without the approval of the law of the land.

I've really not seen all that much good vrs. evil...good hunting down evil, during my time here. I've been involved in one cvc in my whole time in alfa, which did infact have this exact situation though. You really have to go on the rp surrounding the situation to decide the PC action...my PC was given word and approval from a Sergeant of the local law. Even then, my PC did not hunt the other PC down, but happened across them out in the wild while engaging in a completely different rp route and business. And again, I knew of a pally getting their tail shoved between their legs by a Banite, as well as a manhunt for another PC associated with the PC my own killed, that was a specific hunt for that neutral PC. But my own sight may be limited as I've spent the majority of my time playing on TSM...I've no idea how cvc has been on other servers. It really doesn't happen all that often as far as I am aware. And needless to say, I've avoided cvc since my one experience with it because it does tend to get messy and people get bent out of shape over it. And in that vein, I think quite a few avoid it as well for the same reason...so evil doers likely do get a LOT of leeway. I've played side by side with a lot of evil PC's and have never really had problem or issue, because again, those PC's tend to be very discreet about their doings. If you broadcast it, yes, it will likely become an issue for you in the long run.

[t-ice]

In the same vein as it being a midevil representative time without trials....I seriously doubt anyone would be questioned or proded too hard for dispatching a known criminal, if we are going along that line of thinking...with or without the approval of the law of the land.

They most likely wouldn't give rat's ass about the rights of the "known criminal", as western law would put it. But I'd say "the law enforcement", in whatever IC form it may take, would generally care about having the monopoly on lawful violence in a restless land where almost everyone is armed. And care about it a lot in the bigger cities where peace needs to be enforced - if not really so much in the semi-wild frontiers.

So it follows that rather "doubt anyone would be questioned or proded too hard" is more about who was it that you killed. You're a regular someone who killed someone else, we need order and can't have killings on the streets, so to the gallows you go as an example. Unless there's an actual outlaw decree on the person killed, of course. ("without approval of the law" cannot be with "known criminal")

[Darkmystic]

I note the utter failure of in-character law enforcement to enforce the law vs. PCs. There's currently a 0% mortality rate for being convicted of capital crimes when the criminal happens to be a PC; they are all released with a spanking and a stern "tsk tsk." They may be sent to bed without supper, as well.

Perhaps that's meant to be in character, but I would think that making the argument based on "Law enforcement is there" should require that the law enforcement be there.

Thats very intressting to see you write that

[dergon darkhelm]

I think there is a sense that the NPC organizations of Law and Justice are disproportionately fleshed out in the ALFA build, making an in-game unbalance toward the sides of Law and good.

Most DMs, myself included, are quite reticent to have NPC organization activly engaging in de facto CvC through these organizations.

Is it a "punt" to therefore not have these organizations of Justice mete out the ultimate penalty on PCs? Sure it is. But it's the right thing to do.

Until we have a roughly equal balance of built out thieve's guilds, evil cults, dark religions to roughly equate with the KiS's, House Invincibles, Argent Legions of the world, I think we're best off taking a light hand to playing out the criminal justice system via the DM wand.


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Yatar (nwn1) had a script that put your PC in jail for bearing arms in town, enforced by the watch.

That was awesome. My PC was being chased by like three armed guards and running around town for 10 RL minutes trying to get away. This was despite having drunk an invisibilty potion. The script had them on your arse despite stealth etc. This was in the days when they would follow you across ATs. I finally went down in a sewer and let a couple big spiders attack them as I conveniently slipped by the vermin which were not using the same "true seeing" script" ..... ahh the good old days

[oldgrayrogue]

I am all for summary medieval justice without trial by the powers that be in any given area. Why is it that PCs who generally walk around solving their problems at the end of a blade think they are entitled to a fair trial by their peers with all the trappings of modern western civil rights at their disposal? I also agree wholeheartedly with Dan, that if a known goodly adventurer happens to dispose of a bad guy he is more likely to get deputized than punished.

[Burt]

Yatar (nwn1) had a script that put your PC in jail for bearing arms in town, enforced by the watch.

That was awesome. My PC was being chased by like three armed guards and running around town for 10 RL minutes trying to get away. This was despite having drunk an invisibilty potion. The script had them on your arse despite stealth etc. This was in the days when they would follow you across ATs. I finally went down in a sewer and let a couple big spiders attack them as I conveniently slipped by the vermin which were not using the same "true seeing" script" ..... ahh the good old days

Hah! I sometimes wonder if all NWN1's bugs, exploits and cheating made it somehow more fun!

[Zelknolf]

Most DMs, myself included, are quite reticent to have NPC organization activly engaging in de facto CvC through these organizations.

Alright, but we also have the argument that good is expected to use non-lethal force when possible, and is expected to capture instead of kill-- and when it's successful, the CvC is already won, and the DMs who release the captured criminals are, in a sense, reverting that (significantly-more-difficult) success while carrying the threat that good-aligned characters will lose their alignment (and their class powers, if any are alignment-dependent) for acting in any other way.

[kid]

Most DMs, myself included, are quite reticent to have NPC organization activly engaging in de facto CvC through these organizations.

Alright, but we also have the argument that good is expected to use non-lethal force when possible, and is expected to capture instead of kill-- and when it's successful, the CvC is already won, and the DMs who release the captured criminals are, in a sense, reverting that (significantly-more-difficult) success while carrying the threat that good-aligned characters will lose their alignment (and their class powers, if any are alignment-dependent) for acting in any other way.

I would assume that if a goody is after lets say a killer, he would even heal him when down, capture him if he can with no risk to his own life and bring him to trail,
there the killer should (99% of the times in midevilish systems)
be hung/beheaded/killed somehow.
a CG toon might feel just as fine killing a criminal if it absolutly knows the toon is a killer. a lawful toon will allways prefer bringing him to justice. just the way I see it.
The only thing we can do as players is play our toons and hope DMs would see it the same way.

[dirsa]

I also agree wholeheartedly with Dan, that if a known goodly adventurer happens to dispose of a bad guy he is more likely to get deputized than punished.

yup... deputized by local militia, and then shanked soon after by the friends of the disposed...

[paazin]

I note the utter failure of in-character law enforcement to enforce the law vs. PCs. There's currently a 0% mortality rate for being convicted of capital crimes when the criminal happens to be a PC; they are all released with a spanking and a stern "tsk tsk." They may be sent to bed without supper, as well.

Perhaps that's meant to be in character, but I would think that making the argument based on "Law enforcement is there" should require that the law enforcement be there.

Nah, we've killed off a few actually. It's just not that publicized.

[paazin]

This was in the days when they would follow you across ATs.

If people are interested we can re-add this without too much difficulty.