Balance between players

[oldgrayrogue]

All farming and playing alone does is make your roleplaying weak. The more you do it, the less you remember to practice basic IC social skills that are essential with alfa. It's a repetitve obessesive complusive activity that ultimate leads to character death and more illgeal behaviors that exploit the game engine.

Sorry, but I have to disagree. There is a difference between farming and adventuring solo. Those posting about going out and killing spawns because they have nothing else to do should not be faulted. Yes, hitting every spawn point alone in a circuit every day you log on is a no-no, but all solo play is not and certainly doesn't make your role play weak. Just make it part of your story, and then RP about it with others after you are done. Its when the XP and loot is the reason you do it that makes it bad.

I'll give an example. I played a rogue for over two years in ALFA. I was working towards a prestige class for Shadowdancer. I had a DM sponser but sessions were few and far between due to real life. When I was logged in alone with the PC, I would solo caves and use only hit and run sneak attack from the shadows tactics. I solo RPd it with emotes and everything, and frankly it was very immersive and fun (at least for me). This was my SD "training" for the HiPS he would get when/if he acheived the class. Whatever loot I got from these solo expeditions, I would give a portion to a DM to represent "offerings" to my rogue's deity, again RP'd in connection with prestige class advancement. I would also solo RP leaving items I had found in places where another aspiring rogue might find them. Later, when some other players were on I might discuss the training with them etc. You can make solo play a part of your story. It just takes imagination. This whole game is about imagination. The idea that you can't have an active imagination when you are alone is silly. It does not weaken your RP. Any good author "roleplays" numerous characters simultaneously in their own head. Just enjoy the content, make it a part of your story, and don't abuse it purely for wealth and XP.

[Kemeras]

All farming and playing alone does is make your roleplaying weak. The more you do it, the less you remember to practice basic IC social skills that are essential with alfa. It's a repetitve obessesive complusive activity that ultimate leads to character death and more illgeal behaviors that exploit the game engine.

Sorry, but I have to disagree. There is a difference between farming and adventuring solo. Those posting about going out and killing spawns because they have nothing else to do should not be faulted. Yes, hitting every spawn point alone in a circuit every day you log on is a no-no, but all solo play is not and certainly doesn't make your role play weak. Just make it part of your story, and then RP about it with others after you are done. Its when the XP and loot is the reason you do it that makes it bad.

I'll give an example. I played a rogue for over two years in ALFA. I was working towards a prestige class for Shadowdancer. I had a DM sponser but sessions were few and far between due to real life. When I was logged in alone with the PC, I would solo caves and use only hit and run sneak attack from the shadows tactics. I solo RPd it with emotes and everything, and frankly it was very immersive and fun (at least for me). This was my SD "training" for the HiPS he would get when/if he acheived the class. Whatever loot I got from these solo expeditions, I would give a portion to a DM to represent "offerings" to my rogue's deity, again RP'd in connection with prestige class advancement. I would also solo RP leaving items I had found in places where another aspiring rogue might find them. Later, when some other players were on I might discuss the training with them etc. You can make solo play a part of your story. It just takes imagination. This whole game is about imagination. The idea that you can't have an active imagination when you are alone is silly. It does not weaken your RP. Any good author "roleplays" numerous characters simultaneously in their own head. Just enjoy the content, make it a part of your story, and don't abuse it purely for wealth and XP.

+1 , I do the same things

If a system is designed to allow an action, that action will be taken. The context of the actions is the important part to determining abuse versus legal play in a low population environment.

[NESchampion]

Consumables are tricky because of the low wealth level, because players make on-the-fly decisions comparing immediate and future worth. Can I tough out one more encounter without using this CLW or scroll of Grease? If I do, I've increased my chances of surviving later when it might not be a choice. Spellcasters make the same choice with spells in the short term: will this adventure be longer? Should I hold back my mage armor spell until halfway into the adventure, so I know it lasts? What's the risk I get hurt if I hold it?

What also tends to happen is that characters sell expensive consumables? Why? Because the immediate result (gold) is highly weighted (CLWs potions, silvered bolts, etc.) while the long term result (say Haste for one fight) is low weighted. But it's not because Haste isn't a life saver in that one fight, it very well may be.

Instead it's a two pronged problem: Items that valuable that are consumable hit the problem in the first paragraph but at an extreme: they are so valuable that people over-hesitate with them. Burning 700 gp for one fight when that's more coin than you might see in a few months time is such a hard sell that it becomes nearly impossible to do. Players recognize this fact subtly. So they sell the potion and buy a few things. These few things are lower in value, and so the player won't hesitate as much to use them when needed, but additionally they have now stretched their coin value further. They sacrificed half the potion value but the remaining half they might use to survive three fights, while the Haste potion only saves them in one fight.

It's also why Use/Day items are highly coveted. There's a far far less need to hesitate when using the item doesn't stop you from using it again tomorrow.

Higher wealth availability means players hesitate less to use consumables, and thus stop hamstringing themselves so much in fights at their CR or above. It's a lot about perception and expectation, and while I can't speak for everyone, I usually expect that in a DM event if I'm lucky I'll break even if the fight is a challenge. Sometimes I'll do a little better, and lots of times I've wound up poorer because I burnt through 3 or 4 potions and multiple scrolls and silver bolts to survive an extended fight. Non-DMed adventures are a random shot; sometimes you get lucky and don't need to use any items because the duration is typically at your discretion. Other times, you burn through two CLWs potions while fighting animals and wind up 100 gp poorer.

[thinkpig]

Consumables are tricky because of the low wealth level, because players make on-the-fly decisions comparing immediate and future worth. Can I tough out one more encounter without using this CLW or scroll of Grease? If I do, I've increased my chances of surviving later when it might not be a choice

if you use up your scroll of grease, you're SCREWED

[t-ice]

Consumables are tricky because of the low wealth level, because players make on-the-fly decisions comparing immediate and future worth.

It's also why Use/Day items are highly coveted.

The PW reality seems to be that permanent items rule supreme over expendables. That tends to decrease variety in gameplay, as the dull and steady beats over the flashy and fleeting. This probably has to do with the challenges in practice being more of the attrition type than a single hard fight. Possibly also because people don't expect to be able to correctly evaluate when is the time that extra boost is needed.

The conclusion seems to be that by-the-book PnP pricing does not match the reality on the PW ground when permanents versus expendables are concerned. It's an obvious sign if people routinely sell their expendables to buy permanents for half the book value. Question is, what's to be done about it?

[Adanu]

It's simple, as far as I'm concerned. DnD FR was *never* meant to be low wealth. Low magic is debatable, but a simple look at the pricing for even a simple CMW potion should be enough to tell anyone that low wealth leads to consumables simply not being worth their price through simple attrition when the standard 'payout' for anything is typically 100-300. Breaking even is *not* the way to go about earning wealth.

I play these PWs for the roleplay and the stories, but I've always had the view that low wealth is absurd. I only go along with it since most seem to think this makes it 'better'.

As it stands, I've read the standards on rewards and the like in ALFA, and thus far it seems to me that ALFAs lack of DMs has been the culprit behind the lack of wealth, with a secondary issue that some DMs use their own standards over the actual standards they're supposed to adhere too.

Mirabai and Jayde actually used decent loot in their campaigns, and we progressed and used consumables nicely because of it. I'd love to see that adopted by others.

Exodus is guilty of this as well in my opinion, but that's another story.

[t-ice]

Simple increase in total amounts of wealth is not going to change the consumable/permanent balance much, unless you somehow limit the availability of permanent items, but allow for expendables. The guy who bought +N weapons and armors of megaX, instead of consumables, will rule in the long term all the same.

It's also quite the different world in DMing if the expectation is that every PC will have a pocket full of "simple" CMW potions or not.

In the PW we don't have steady parties with largely pooled resources, every character for herself makes different roles in party quite unequal, too. Say, in case of an attrition event where everyone pays for her own healing. Shooting for every PCs having to have a large apotechary of healing potions isn't the way to go, either. And permanents or use/day items rule supreme as ever, and it's the PC who prepared by stacking up on consumable healing that likely ends up paying for everyone's needs. That vaunted "balance" just tends to be elusive as always... and unfortunately antithetical with interesting and varied

But to offer something constructive, PCs scribing and brewing is one way to decrease the cost of expendables compared to permanents, while having PC stories and PC-PC interaction while at it.

[JaydeMoon]

Adanu is correct though.

Changing the wealth standards is not the answer. Abiding by them is.

Mirabai and Jayde actually used decent loot in their campaigns

We did not give anything that wasn't allowed by standards.

[oldgrayrogue]

In my view, ALFA has become (or maybe always has been) obsessed with standards and balance often at the expense of gameplay. When "balance" becomes an end unto itself gameplay suffers. To my mind there are simple solutions to the consumables problem. For example, the cost of a CLW potion could be lowered significantly, or as Jayde points out, wealth standards can actually be followed. Alternatively, level 1 - 4 players could be permitted one free rest per day that restores all HP. These solutions have been discussed and debated in the past, but always disgarded in the name of loyalty to PnP. Adherence to PnP is often touted as a reason not to make changes like this that deviate from PnP, and disregarded when that adherence would result in some perceived benefit to PCs.

Most PC's last I checked were at or below wealth standards. Historically, wealth and XP has been rewarded in eyedropper increments, with very few exceptions. If we are to insist on game "balance" and "standards" as our paragon, balance has to work both ways. In a hardcore gameworld, PCs have to have enough wealth and equipment to be able to survive encounters that correspond to their level, and at least have a chance for those above their level -- without paupering themselves in the process. If not we are subtley pushing players to make choices that maximize their ability to survive, either by character builds that maximize their chances for survival or avoiding adventuring altogether. We bemoan the lack of "adventuring" style RP on ALFA, but when adventuring yields negative returns it seems IC not to adventure and instead sit in a tavern talking. When you get a better return from an RPXP script for sitting around chatting about your lovelife, rather than risking your life hunting evil mosters, you promote the tavern RP social style of gameplay.

Over and over I have raised the issue of out of whack, seemingly upside down XP rewards for static spawn encounters and the lack of any loot drops for most encounters. Calls for change in this regard have always been largely ignored. I can only assume the reason is that if loot rewards and XP are increased, there is a fear that a few farmers will go bonkers and earn all sorts of wealth and XP which will somehow ruin the game for everyone else. I don't see that, especially if the alternative is to detract from the gaming experience for everyone in the name of "balance."

We want to recreate a PnP D&D experience. To me D&D is about fantasy stories, about roleplay, about adventures, about slaying dragons and saving the damsel in distress. I don't want to play a commoner in a Sims game. Low gold, low magic does not have to be next to no gold, no magic. Adventuring should not be a losing proposition. If it is, everyone would just stay "on the farm." Yes, there most certainly must be risk, and real risk of (perma)death, but with that risk should come appropriate reward. When I retired the rogue I described above at level 9, he did not have any item with greater than a +1 enhancement to AC or AB. Even with that, I'd say he was uber equipped relative to many other ALFA PCs. Over the life of the character he had tons of DM attention, and completed just about every static quest available, with a few exceptions. To my thinking, something is broken there.

[Ksiel]

In my view, ALFA has become (or maybe always has been) obsessed with standards and balance often at the expense of gameplay. When "balance" becomes an end unto itself gameplay suffers. To my mind there are simple solutions to the consumables problem. For example, the cost of a CLW potion could be lowered significantly, or as Jayde points out, wealth standards can actually be followed. Alternatively, level 1 - 4 players could be permitted one free rest per day that restores all HP. These solutions have been discussed and debated in the past, but always disgarded in the name of loyalty to PnP. Adherence to PnP is often touted as a reason not to make changes like this that deviate from PnP, and disregarded when that adherence would result in some perceived benefit to PCs.

Most PC's last I checked were at or below wealth standards. Historically, wealth and XP has been rewarded in eyedropper increments, with very few exceptions. If we are to insist on game "balance" and "standards" as our paragon, balance has to work both ways. In a hardcore gameworld, PCs have to have enough wealth and equipment to be able to survive encounters that correspond to their level, and at least have a chance for those above their level -- without paupering themselves in the process. If not we are subtley pushing players to make choices that maximize their ability to survive, either by character builds that maximize their chances for survival or avoiding adventuring altogether. We bemoan the lack of "adventuring" style RP on ALFA, but when adventuring yields negative returns it seems IC not to adventure and instead sit in a tavern talking. When you get a better return from an RPXP script for sitting around chatting about your lovelife, rather than risking your life hunting evil mosters, you promote the tavern RP social style of gameplay.

Over and over I have raised the issue of out of whack, seemingly upside down XP rewards for static spawn encounters and the lack of any loot drops for most encounters. Calls for change in this regard have always been largely ignored. I can only assume the reason is that if loot rewards and XP are increased, there is a fear that a few farmers will go bonkers and earn all sorts of wealth and XP which will somehow ruin the game for everyone else. I don't see that, especially if the alternative is to detract from the gaming experience for everyone in the name of "balance."

We want to recreate a PnP D&D experience. To me D&D is about fantasy stories, about roleplay, about adventures, about slaying dragons and saving the damsel in distress. I don't want to play a commoner in a Sims game. Low gold, low magic does not have to be next to no gold, no magic. Adventuring should not be a losing proposition. If it is, everyone would just stay "on the farm." Yes, there most certainly must be risk, and real risk of (perma)death, but with that risk should come appropriate reward. When I retired the rogue I described above at level 9, he did not have any item with greater than a +1 enhancement to AC or AB. Even with that, I'd say he was uber equipped relative to many other ALFA PCs. Over the life of the character he had tons of DM attention, and completed just about every static quest available, with a few exceptions. To my thinking, something is broken there.

+1, agreed

[fluffmonster]

/me remembers the days of Jaydelewt fondly

[Veilan]

Fluff is imbalancing due to his massive girth and weight.

[Castano]

+1 to OGR. Up the loot drops people.

The only counter I have is some of our players are so damn good, even a balanced encounter by the books leads to them owning everything in sight.

[Mick]

In my view, ALFA has become (or maybe always has been) obsessed with standards and balance often at the expense of gameplay. When "balance" becomes an end unto itself gameplay suffers. To my mind there are simple solutions to the consumables problem. For example, the cost of a CLW potion could be lowered significantly, or as Jayde points out, wealth standards can actually be followed. Alternatively, level 1 - 4 players could be permitted one free rest per day that restores all HP. These solutions have been discussed and debated in the past, but always disgarded in the name of loyalty to PnP. Adherence to PnP is often touted as a reason not to make changes like this that deviate from PnP, and disregarded when that adherence would result in some perceived benefit to PCs.

Most PC's last I checked were at or below wealth standards. Historically, wealth and XP has been rewarded in eyedropper increments, with very few exceptions. If we are to insist on game "balance" and "standards" as our paragon, balance has to work both ways. In a hardcore gameworld, PCs have to have enough wealth and equipment to be able to survive encounters that correspond to their level, and at least have a chance for those above their level -- without paupering themselves in the process. If not we are subtley pushing players to make choices that maximize their ability to survive, either by character builds that maximize their chances for survival or avoiding adventuring altogether. We bemoan the lack of "adventuring" style RP on ALFA, but when adventuring yields negative returns it seems IC not to adventure and instead sit in a tavern talking. When you get a better return from an RPXP script for sitting around chatting about your lovelife, rather than risking your life hunting evil mosters, you promote the tavern RP social style of gameplay.

Over and over I have raised the issue of out of whack, seemingly upside down XP rewards for static spawn encounters and the lack of any loot drops for most encounters. Calls for change in this regard have always been largely ignored. I can only assume the reason is that if loot rewards and XP are increased, there is a fear that a few farmers will go bonkers and earn all sorts of wealth and XP which will somehow ruin the game for everyone else. I don't see that, especially if the alternative is to detract from the gaming experience for everyone in the name of "balance."

We want to recreate a PnP D&D experience. To me D&D is about fantasy stories, about roleplay, about adventures, about slaying dragons and saving the damsel in distress. I don't want to play a commoner in a Sims game. Low gold, low magic does not have to be next to no gold, no magic. Adventuring should not be a losing proposition. If it is, everyone would just stay "on the farm." Yes, there most certainly must be risk, and real risk of (perma)death, but with that risk should come appropriate reward. When I retired the rogue I described above at level 9, he did not have any item with greater than a +1 enhancement to AC or AB. Even with that, I'd say he was uber equipped relative to many other ALFA PCs. Over the life of the character he had tons of DM attention, and completed just about every static quest available, with a few exceptions. To my thinking, something is broken there.

My apologies to any moderators or moderator bots that may be watching, but...

FUCKING A!!!!

To translate, I whole-heartedly agree with everything OGR just said.

Addendum: To be fair, Some DMs recently have been doing their parts to improve this situation (Paazin, Trid, Rorax, Mir, Jayde come to mind.)

[Adanu]

Simple increase in total amounts of wealth is not going to change the consumable/permanent balance much, unless you somehow limit the availability of permanent items, but allow for expendables. The guy who bought +N weapons and armors of megaX, instead of consumables, will rule in the long term all the same.

It's also quite the different world in DMing if the expectation is that every PC will have a pocket full of "simple" CMW potions or not.

In the PW we don't have steady parties with largely pooled resources, every character for herself makes different roles in party quite unequal, too. Say, in case of an attrition event where everyone pays for her own healing. Shooting for every PCs having to have a large apotechary of healing potions isn't the way to go, either. And permanents or use/day items rule supreme as ever, and it's the PC who prepared by stacking up on consumable healing that likely ends up paying for everyone's needs. That vaunted "balance" just tends to be elusive as always... and unfortunately antithetical with interesting and varied

But to offer something constructive, PCs scribing and brewing is one way to decrease the cost of expendables compared to permanents, while having PC stories and PC-PC interaction while at it.

An increase in total wealth will allow players to feel like consumables aren't going to make them poor. It's simple... you give the means, and PCs will decide that using them is worthwhile.

Sure, perm. items will still be used, but that is what they are *there* for, no?