GF's platform

Swift · Post by **Swift** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:42 am

Taken this to PMs, but suffice to say:

Insanity is repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting different results ...

We have "tried" no moderation for years and it has put us exactly where we are today.

Is a two way street.

Magile · Post by **Magile** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:20 am

Nalo Jade wrote:The example of someome leaving due to their RP method being discussed is not evidence to support the "anti moderation" cause ... it is evidence to support the moderation cause.

Wrong. It shows poor guidelines/priorities. If you feel like you have to remove the evil scourge of lolcats over keeping new members from being harassed, then something is wrong with either the rules or you. The fact that this occurs with the "new" rules really says something, especially since it empowers those that were involved in this situation to play the "no u" card and find ways to defend why they did what they did and outed a new member.

Dorn · Post by **Dorn** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:23 am

Why not ask GF some questions?

I'm sure people who are intensely interested in moderation policy might be missing this debate becasue it's under an election questions thread. If it was in it's own properly titled thread then noone would miss out on the chance to get involved!

GF, how do you think you can get the most enjoyment out of playing NWN2 in alfa? How will you help players new and old achieve that?

Do you/will you have a PC?

zicada · Post by **zicada** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:58 pm

Mulu wrote:Heck, just look at the official Bioware forums for examples of hostility.

So GF, if you find you can't eliminate forum moderation, would you be willing to empower a "poison pill" by appointing a moderater that will do such a godawful job that the community as a whole will convulse and reject the moderation system?

Then again I suspect someone has already done this.

I think we kinda did that allready

Nyarlathotep · Post by **Nyarlathotep** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:56 pm

**Self Edit**

White Warlock · Post by **White Warlock** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:25 pm

Nyarlathotep wrote:If you look back to the nastiest flamewars in ALFA history none of them have been spawned by spamming or LOL cats.

Unfortunately Nyar, such things as spamming or lolcats serves to undermine productive discussion and also does agitate people who are trying to maintain civil, productive discourse. The issue is not merely about stopping flamewars, it is about community management, to ensure productive discussions have an opportunity to take flight, rather than be constantly grounded.

Even OFF TOPIC which has seen some truly nasty fights in particular threads has never created any true animosity between members that has then spilled over elsewhere.

In this, Nyar, i would have to strongly disagree. There have been people who 'quit' due to the arguments in off-topic, often based on learning of racial or other prejudicial stances or conditions.

Also, part of the problem with Off-Topic is that people do gain 'opinions' of other members on issues unrelated to this project, and then hold to these opinions, presenting biased/prejudicial treatment when examining project-oriented input from said person(s).

The thing is though forum bile has always been a symptom of greater problems and not an actual cause.

Yes and no, Nyar. Part of the problem, which i addressed awhile back, is that these forums are setup in a way that encourages vitriolic debate. It is setup like a debate forum, and not like a project forum. It is has been managed not at all, leaving this community to be an unmoderated free-for-all. That some have considered this to be "standard practice" IS part of the problem, because even if it has been "standard practice," it should not be.

As a project, it should be managed like a project. Granted, it is a volunteer project, but it is still a project. Granted, it is a gaming project, but it is STILL a project. All other considerations aside, the ultimate goal of this community is to develop a playable, dmable, persistent world utilizing NWN1 and NWN2.

If you visit NWN groups with an agenda, a goal, you will see that they do manage their forums, but they also ensure that their forums are geared towards project development, and not free-for-all character assassination, debasement, vitriolic exchanges, and discussion-ending spam. Their forums are relatively clean and their projects are very much productive (examples: DragonLance, LotR, DMFI, and Sigil).

One of ALFA's fundamental flaws has always been having a goal, yet not ensuring a community structure that encourages a focus to that goal. Because of this, it is a struggle for people to 'keep on track' here. So many have indicated they have to avoid the forums and chat in order to get anything done. I think that, in and of itself, is a telling series of claims made by 'productive' members.

zicada · Post by **zicada** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:52 pm

Unfortunately Nyar, such things as spamming or lolcats serves to undermine productive discussion and also does agitate people who are trying to maintain civil, productive discourse.

LOL

You sir, are the best troll who ever existed. Partly because you dont even realize it.

Nyarlathotep · Post by **Nyarlathotep** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:07 pm

**Self Edit**

zicada · Post by **zicada** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:17 pm

When are you all gonna realize that ALFA is 2 games ?

ALFA-game A = the actual in game IC actual roleplaing.

ALFA-game B = forum-game

ALFA-game A works out just fine with 1/20 of the forumspace we have. It requires the small forums that only a handful of the people who actually work on game-A, so they can colaborate. The rest, is only for ALFA-game B. This is why some of us have so much fun laughing at the ultra-serious people.

ALFA-game B also has alot more players. and is allways never empty

JaydeMoon · Post by **JaydeMoon** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:37 pm

I didn't sign on to play ALFA Game B, though...

And when I want to get on the forums to deal with the 1/20th of stuff that pertains to ALFA Game A, I don't always want to have to deal, sift through, be subjected to ALFA Game B.

And I'm one who steps in and DOES dabble in Game B from time to time. I imagine there are quite a few that have absolutely no desire to step into that game, yet here we are, forcing it on them, day in and day out. Because apparently, the Overlords of the Internet declared that the Internet is about free speech.

Still waiting on you to show me the actual amendments, bills, laws, propositions, what have you that show that to be the case, by the way.

zicada · Post by **zicada** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:58 pm

JaydeMoon wrote:I didn't sign on to play ALFA Game B, though...

And when I want to get on the forums to deal with the 1/20th of stuff that pertains to ALFA Game A, I don't always want to have to deal, sift through, be subjected to ALFA Game B.

And I'm one who steps in and DOES dabble in Game B from time to time. I imagine there are quite a few that have absolutely no desire to step into that game, yet here we are, forcing it on them, day in and day out. Because apparently, the Overlords of the Internet declared that the Internet is about free speech.

Still waiting on you to show me the actual amendments, bills, laws, propositions, what have you that show that to be the case, by the way.

You dont most likely even have access to the alfa-game A forums. There are very few of them, theyre just so the tech and build people can cooperate nicely. The rest, is random stuff that doesnt affect the alfa-game A at all. Oh, yeah, IMHO.

JaydeMoon · Post by **JaydeMoon** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:04 pm

Oh, yeah, IMHO.

Heh.

White Warlock · Post by **White Warlock** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:04 pm

Actually, you're absolutely right Zicada. There are two games here. And Jaydemoon is definitely right... we cannot very well avoid game B, even if we wanted to, because in order to access or contribute to game A, we have to be subjected to game B... a game 'none' of us signed on for.

The solution, as i indicated above, and a few times in the past, is for those who wish to continue playing game B, to create a separate and disconnected location for your interaction, thus allowing those who wish to partake 'solely' of game A will be able to do so.

And, again you are right zicada, i have occasionally participated in game B. But, when i want to participate 'only' in game A, i simply don't have that option. We need these two 'games' separated. If we cannot do so, or if game B participants are unwilling, then game B... the game that people did not sign up for, needs to be eliminated.

Harsh maybe, but what other choices are there? The choice presented or the choice enforced... that's all the choices there can be.

Vendrin · Post by **Vendrin** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:08 pm

There have been people who 'quit' due to the arguments in off-topic, often based on learning of racial or other prejudicial stances or conditions.

Names please.

White Warlock · Post by **White Warlock** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:17 pm

Vendrin wrote:
There have been people who 'quit' due to the arguments in off-topic, often based on learning of racial or other prejudicial stances or conditions.
Names please.

I cannot recall names all that easily, although i can remember a few incidents:

There was a person who quit alfa because of hurtful off-topic discussions he posed to Mikayla, in which he disagreed with her lifestyle, and thus disagreed with this community for having Mik as a participant.

There was at least one person who quit alfa because they were upset with the off-topic discussions regarding the wrongs committed by Bush, as presented by others and I, which were later presented as truths by the 'general' media.

There was the person who strongly disagreed with a German member here, who showed a firm commitment to the ideals of Nazicism, and thus that person quit. Later, the German person quit after being harrassed due to his off-topic views.

There was Aurora/Bob, who participated in plenty of off-topic related discussions and who was banned at one point because of his/her posing as a woman. Others quit due to the embarrassment they had for some having inferred they participated in net-sex with Aurora/Bob thinking he was a woman.

These are just a few i can recall off the top of my head. Point being, these are 'some' of the visible incidents, and do not include all those who may have quit, without creating a scene, after reading a few off-topic threads.

Unfortunately Ven, this really is a rather large tangent.