Suggestion: Player/DMs on TSM

White Warlock · Post by **White Warlock** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:56 pm

Dread, Distrust, Disrespect... that's what's going on here.

Dread the damage such a change could make

Distrust the members (DMs, in this case)

Disrespect the members by not trusting them

So... are your fears valid? I don't believe so. Any inappropriate actions committed can easily be 'reversed' and those participants can be penalized or banned. Fear of action is holding back this community once again. Don't cower in the corner, just do it.

Seriously, it's only one server, all characters are already being managed by the scripts so they do not fall outside the wealth/item standards, so quit with all these unfounded concerns. Find a means to put it into effect, for the betterment of the community.

Stop being afraid when scripts are already in place, stop being leery of DMs, and stop dishonoring ALFA members.

White Warlock · Post by **White Warlock** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:05 am

Seriously, what's the point of being a member in ALFA is you're going to be treated like a pariah? What's the point of being a DM in ALFA if you're not going to be trusted? For that matter, what's the point of being an Admin if you're going to be ridiculed for the unpopular decisions you make?

Stop, stop stop. Every member of ALFA deserves respect. Each and every one of them. Each and every DM deserves to be honored for their commitment to this community, and every Admin deserves to be praised for taking upon a 'voluntary' role that requires so much damn work.

Remove the hate, remove the fear, remove the dread, and start trusting again. It's ALFA's ONLY chance. It truly is.

Lusipher · Post by **Lusipher** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:17 am

Whitey you mean well, but your words are falling on deaf ears. Most people see you post a few times and then write what you say off as mostly you wanting to hear yourself talk. Im not one of them, but I can see this. You mean well but something you can say in one post or so you will make in many and of great length that most common folks cannot take the time to read because they find it beneath them.

ALFAs greatest problem is the fact it is fine with being complacent. It has been complacent for a long time and thats why many of us left for periods of time. Its going to take strong leaders without agendas to finally make this a better place. We both know this. The ALFA body just need to take a leap of faith and see where it takes them.

Im with you, man. Lets just see if this place truly wants to change. Its a game after all. If we can look past all the nonsense this its still a game.

ThinkTank · Post by **ThinkTank** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:50 am

White Warlock wrote:Every member of ALFA deserves respect. Each and every one of them.

What even Zic?

White Warlock · Post by **White Warlock** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:20 am

Until he's no longer a member, yes.

ThinkTank · Post by **ThinkTank** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:22 am

Well, he is a member.

darrenhfx · Post by **darrenhfx** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:21 pm

One provision we could look at is to have a separate user group for the player/DMs so that the access to meta info is further curtailed.

Also, I believe that we can effectively monitor any potential misdoings through our 1984 logs. This should be of some reassurance to those who feel that the risks outweigh the benefits.

oldgrayrogue · Post by **oldgrayrogue** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:08 pm

As I said in my prior posts, I think the opportunities for Player/DM's to metagame can be easily minimized as follows:

1. No access to DM Forums. This avoids problems with access to major plotlines.

2. Limitied authority to award ONLY a set range of RP XP or Gold as rewards. This can be a very small limit. It is the immersive RP experience we are trying to address, not add more loot and rewards. Heck, make a no XP and loot rule for all I care. This avoids problems with favortism. Add a "per PC" limit too if you really think people will just dump XP and wealth on their friends, (although I doubt it) and then check the logs to police.

3. Small scale "spice" type events only. Again avoids problems of playing and DMing in a major plot.

4. Player/DMs must log their events on a separate forum. The HDM will know everything they are doing and who they are DMing.

5. Possibly limit Player/DM events to certain types of events or areas. This may serve to limit the potential for the type of temptation described by Vendrin.

6. Consider having Player/DMs log in on a separate account name so that they are anonymous. This should alleviate the concern of players feeling weird or RPing differently with a DM that they have had conflict with IC on the player side.

Honestly, if a Player/DM is intent on using this opportunity to meta there probably is not a whole lot that can be done to prevent them, but the small risk that someone will do so should not stop us from trying this IMO given the current lack of active DM's on TSM. And I am by no means complaining, it is just the reality. If someone betrays our trust well, in the end as others have said it is just a game and if virtual loot and advancement over other players is really so important, well then have fun with that. I tend to think most ALFAns are probably in it for the RP though.

MShady · Post by **MShady** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:40 am

Question: What happens with NWN1 who want to play and DM on a NWN2 server?

My forum fu is not strong anymore. Wouldn't they be able to read the NWN2 DM forums as well?

In regards to forum access in general, considering the already enormous meta potential and that a proto-DM can pick up most of the forum's important content IC or asking the other active DMs, I don't really see the point.

Since they can already abuse the system a great deal if they truly wanted to, forum access or no, I'm not sure the merits of handcuffing the DM. If they're DMing, let them DM. Pretty much. I'd be careful on the loot but as the lack of access doesn't prevent them from knowing much, the restriction can only restrict them.

I'm not sure how many DMs would sign up for just atmosphere DMing. This still needs to be permissive enough to see people sign up to do it...

Mike

Sintaqx · Post by **Sintaqx** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:59 am

I would do it, even with the restrictions of not being able to create loot items, gold, or xp. You can 'almost' do it as just a player, but not quite, and it's very difficult, especially when you run into a minor obstacle, like a trapped door. There are very few real secrets, and honestly, if you can't trust someone to keep the secrets and act with discretion, then that person has no business even being considered for the role.

HATEFACE · Post by **HATEFACE** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:32 pm

Vendrin · Post by **Vendrin** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:51 am

So, any ruling?

Lusipher · Post by **Lusipher** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 2:10 am

read the Admin boards. their mulling it over.

AcadiusLost · Post by **AcadiusLost** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:51 am

Late to the party, I realize; but I'd just say that I am very much less than thrilled about the prospect of waiving the player/DM distinction on TSM. Sure, folks like Spider, Paazin, and Darren are empowered to and capable of handling problems as they arise, but what concerns me more are a million minor, nagging issues, very few of which would warrant Admin or HDM "intervention". It's just too natural to get attached to the characters one plays with regularly, and predisposed against those who one comes into frequent opposition with. Participation in shaping the larger shape of active plots is frequently going to affect matters for one's own PC as well, and if you restrict Player/DMs ability to post and read the meta info of the DM forums, you just introduce more failures of communication, of the sort that increase the DM and player frustration levels. Not to mention the need for training and oversight rely on the same thinly scattered full-time DM resources, making the prospect a bit of a catch-22.

PW DMing is a pretty thankless job, and harder to stay motivated for in the face of constant player complaints about lack of DMing. It is a far easier thing to say "I would do a better job if I were...", but when it comes down to it, very few of those who think they might want to try DMing, turn out to be right for the job in a PW like ALFA. It's just a lot harder to do well than people imagine.

Personally, I'd imagine time and effort best spent on trying to get a few more primary-DMs to the point that they feel they can run things twice or more a week without support. Once a few are up to speed, then start in on a few more. It's all about getting DMs communicating, comfortable, and confident so they can multitask and help more players feel less neglected. Getting over that hurdle is not at all easy IMHO, and unlikely to happen often for part-time DMs who retain the luxury of retreating back into playing at all times.

White Warlock · Post by **White Warlock** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 6:58 am

I think it is important for players to indicate their wants, whether they be presented as complaints or as concerns. There is/was a lack of DMs in TSM and from the player's perspective, it just wasn't being addressed. That, in my mind, indicated the issue may not have been realized by those who are not playing in TSM (i.e., the HDM & DMs of TSM and maybe the Admins). A common sense approach to project development is wanting feedback, because sometimes you don't see everything going on.

We presently have more DMs in TSM, but i'm sure many would agree that the more the merrier. If the TSM HDM is okay with this idea, then really... what is it that is preventing this from happening? ALFA bureaucracy, created due to years of an irrational fear this project would eventually be overrun by PGing metagamers.

An absurd fear. I think, after all this time, we can safely say that is simply NOT going to happen. If a choice is made to allow players to also DM in TSM, then they have to be qualified to be DMs. In other words, they have to be accepted as DMs. In this alone we have the distinction of 'expecting' more responsible behavior.

But, DMing is not a job. And no, it's not even a thankless job. In fact, nothing in this project is a job. Everything here is a hobby, and if you're not having fun doing your hobby, if you don't feel good about your participation, or if your idea of fun is to hurt others, then you're definitely in the wrong, whether it be demeanor or location.

Incidently, any DM can access the FTP and download the module to peruse it. Any DM can quit a server and eventually play on it again. Any DM can have a second copy of the software, and two accounts. Any DM can share info to a friend or relative. So really, what is the concern? What is the true fear? Why are we still staring at the net while the ball keeps buzzing right past us?

Cheating is easy, but that's not really the point. The point is, it's not a competition... it's roleplaying. We will never have enough defenses to catch the little fish, but we have more than enough to catch the belligerent, and those are the only ones that truly matter, because those are the ones that could undermine immersion and the fun of other players.